Gib refuse game with good help suit after game try

[lycier]

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=S742HA72DQ92CKJ63&wn=lycier&w=SQJT9HQ64DAK65CAT&nn=louisliu&n=S53HJ53DT843C8752&en=机器人&e=SAK86HKT98DJ7CQ94&d=e&v=b&b=&a=1C(Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20%21C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P1S(One%20over%20one%20--%204+%20%21S%3B%206+%20total%20points)P2S(Simple%20raise%20--%203+%20%21C%3B%204+%20%21S%3B%2011+%20HCP%3B%2012-15%20total%20points)P3H(Game%20try%20suit%20--%203+%20%21H%3B%204+%20%21S%3B%2010+%20HCP%3B)P3S(3+%20%21C%3B%204+%20%21S%3B%2011-14%20HCP%3B%2012-15%20total%20points)P4S(3+%20%21H%3B%204+%20%21S%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%2013-18%20total%20point)PPP&p=D8DJDQDKS9S3S6S7HQH3H8HAC6CTC2C4H4H5H9H7D7D9DAD3D5DTS8D2C9C3CAC5D6D4SAH2SKS4STS5CQCKSJC7SQC8HTS2H6HJHKCJ]499|350[/hv]

 

Wether play LSGT or HSGT,Gib E should bid up to game with Kxxx in ♥.

Strangely,Gib E refuse me,why?

[georgi]

To advance for game GIB checks for:

 

14HCP and some high honor in the help-suit ( Q+)

13+HCP and KQ+ ( and 3+ of course in this suit, not just KQ)

13+( or 12+ with no honors in shortness causing lose of TP ) HCP and unrevealed shortness 0-1 somewhere.

 

To advance with raising in OM ( if that was help-suit ) GIB needs 14HCP and 4 cards ( or might be 13+HCP with short (0-2) other minor and no honors in it). There is no danger raise of help-suit to be over 4 of "our" major as help-suit call is 2♠/3♥, so over 3♠/4♥ responder could correct/pass to appropriate contract.

 

Here with 13HCP , GIB ( opener ) doesn't have 5+HCP in the suit ( KQ, AJ ), so cannot proceed to 4M by itself.

[1eyedjack]

I am surprised that GIB uses HCP rather than TP in this situation (whatever limits you set it at).

 

I am a bit surprised that it uses rules rather than simulations also, but after that 1N-4N-6N hand that I posted earlier, perhaps all to the good.

[Bbradley62]

Is "game try suit" a generally accepted term? I'm familiar with long suit, short suit and help suit game tries, but my knowledge on such things is sometimes a little archaic. I usually take these game tries to mean "bid game with any maximum, or with a little less if you have the properly-fitting cards, based on the type of try".

[georgi]

If, in general, game-try suit guarantees some honor(s), then East has help with top honor K and with almost max could bid game.

 

But here game-try is not defined as Q+ or K+, so versus xxx East with balanced hand and ♦Jx ♣Qxx instead of ♠AKxx♥K1098♦xx♣Kxx may not bid game.

 

Game-try is not just step-stone for game, but responder has or invite values or GF+ values.

 

3NT is also available call for opener, so and splinter in case it has short OM/om. Currently GIB doesn't use these, maybe soon it will.

 

But this flat hand with Jx and Qxx over 3♥ game-try is not the best place to be as opener and deciding to bid game or not.

 

Imagine responder has:

 

QJxx

AQxx

Kx

xxx

[Bbradley62]

Imagine responder has:

QJxx

AQxx

Kx

xxx

I hope that hand would bid 1♥ over 1♣, not 1♠, but I think I can shift one card to see where balanced 13 opposite balanced 12 has issues. But, I still don't get the overall theme. With what holding(s) should I choose to bid 3♥ as a game try rather than simply 3♠?

[lycier]

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=SA2HQ5DKJ8762CT92&wn=lycier&w=SK743HAKJT7DCQJ43&nn=机器人&n=SJT96H86DQ53CA875&en=机器人&e=SQ85H9432DAT94CK6&d=w&v=o&b=&a=1H(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21H%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B)P2H(Simple%20raise%20--%203+%20%21H%3B%207-10%20total%20points)P3C(LSGT%20--%203+%20%21C%3B%205+%20%21H%3B%20Q+%20in%20%21C%3B%2017-18%20to)P4H(3+%20%21H%3B%207+%20HCP%3B%208-10%20total%20points)PPP&p=H8H9H5H7H2HQHKH6C3C7CKC2C6C9CJCASJS5SAS4S2S3S6SQS8D8SKS9CQC8D4CTC4C5H3D2DAD6S7D3H4D7HAD5HJSTDTDJHTDQD9DK]499|350[/hv]

[Bbradley62]

The response for post #7 is clear: Responder has an absolute maximum for his simple raise, so he should accept any game invitation.

[steve2005]

Gib uses 2-way game tries, so 3♥ us a long suit game try. I put it to you that KT98 is undervalued in this situation much as AJT9x is undervalued in most situations.