Bidding Naivete

[Laird]

Hello All

 

My partner and I have played in several tourneys now - with mixed results :)

However in a recent very large tourney we thought that we had played well, making contracts, puting opps down and with only occassional blunders. When we looked at the scoring 72nd in field of 90 (-9.63) ??? - how naive we were!

When we looked at the top scores they were something like + 50.

My questions...

1...is there any way that you can compare your boards,bidding and scores with that of the top players - perhaps using some kind of split screen ie yours on left others on right?

2... when you ask an opponent the meaning of a bid and the response is "no info available". Is that a valid reply within the spirit of the game?

3... I have an impression that Polish players may be having a lot of success in these tounaments and is there any notion of what system used is most successful?

 

best wishes

John

[Codo]

Hi John,

 

I had the same experience. I played the "closetoperfect" bridge and finish around 50 %.

When I reviewed the scores, I had to admit that close to perfect was not the perfect describtion of my game :). It had been with many many mistakes.

So that was the first reason for MY naivete.

 

But there are some others: The players here have very very different abilities. I don?t know, how they pair you at the table, but I think, if you want to win a tournement at BBO, you need to be good and very lucky about who you face as opps. There are some so great gifts, you need to get them and use them.

 

For your questions:

I have no way to compare my play with the top pairs and would like to have one.

"No info avaiable" is often the only correct answer.

But unluckily, I doubt that it is always used in the right spirit. I like to explain anything to my opps., but we had these discussion very often. If there is no agreement, you don´t have to name it.

 

Yes there is the one and only bidding system, which is better then anything else. But of course, I won?t tell it here, I better just play it. :)

 

No, I doubt, that there is one solution. Here in Europe, the italians with a very high-teck strong club system are the leading nation. But last week, during the european championships, some people with natural systems and strong NT for France and Israel played the finals.

 

In Poland, Bridge is a national game. Nearly like chess in Russia. So there are many players and there are mayn very talented players.

Maybe this is a simple reason for big success.

 

Polish Club is a nice system, surely not worse then 2/1 or SA. All have their ups and downs.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[mishovnbg]

1. You can get any result, include winer of tournament from "my hands". Mark by draging mouse, copy, go in Excel and paste there. Do same with your results. Now you can compare it. For details of particular board you must go again in "my hands".

2. One of reasons to win is not giving alert and information from most of polish players. I wrote about to Uday, but he had different point of view about "not serious yet BBO tournaments" ??? .

3. Polish club is much better then any natural system like 2/1, french standart ... Poles improve their system many years and have great experience with it. They also made most of inventions in bridge bidding in past century. Leading pairs in "scientific" bidding in the world like Bocchi-Duboin, Rumen-Kalin... play in vul openings similar to Polish club... If you like we can discuss sbout advantages/disadvantages of bidding systems.

Misho

[luis]

1...is there any way that you can compare your boards,bidding and scores with that of the top players - perhaps using some kind of split screen ie yours on left others on right?

2... when you ask an opponent the meaning of a bid and the response is "no info available". Is that a valid reply within the spirit of the game?

3... I have an impression that Polish players may be having a lot of success in these tounaments and is there any notion of what system used is most successful?

 

 

1. I've had some "dream" tourneys and finished 3rd/4th so I know that to win, specially a short tourney you need a lot of luck! The shorter the tourney is the harder it is to win. A 400 boards tourney will be won by the best pair without any problem, in a 12 board tourney everybody has a fair chance.

 

2. If they don't have an agreement they don't have to say what they have in their hands. I trust players when they don't have an agreement about a particular bid. It's a 100% valid reply.

 

3. Poles play well and they play Polish club (WJ2000 usually) a system that is far superior to SAYC. So they have a natural advantage and it's 100% fair for them to have it. Polish club is not hard to defend, on the other hand it's easier to defend agains PC than to std methods, they just have more accuracy and bidding space because their system is better designed than std.

 

Misho said:

2. One of reasons to win is not giving alert and information from most of polish players. I wrote about to Uday

 

I think this is a difficult issue, for poles their system is standard, but most sayc players found polish club an evil invention that was created to destroy them, the second statement is usually materialized and complains begin.

Why aren't we alerting our SAYC bids to poles? Because we think they are natural and so they think their bids are natural.

Being PC an easy to learn and fun to play system I'd just recommend you that it's better to study the system and have a better understanding of the auctions they produce than asking a zillion questions. You will find that you can bid better, lead better and defend better if you know your opps system. You know what can they have and what they can't, it's impossible to transmit in a tiny box all the inferences and conclusions that can be obtained by someone that know the system.

[inquiry]

Hi John,

 

Don't beat yourself up... It is clear that you were playing in an imp tournment. Sound bridge can easily land you at 0 imps or even with a minus imp score (in an event with few boards). You can even be minus even though you make no obvious mistakes. The reason why is that a huge swings happen at other tables, and these swings effect your score... let me give you four examples.

 

You hold....

 

S-QJxxx

H-T94

D-JT9x

C-7

 

Bidding goes...

(1C)-P-(1H)-P

(2C)-P-(3D)-P

(4C)-P-(4N)-P

(5C)-P-(6H)-all pass

 

Only a trump lead can hold this to 12 tricks. You hold them them to 12 tricks and get MINUS 9 imps. At least you held them to 12..... :-(

 

852

9865

AQ85

A7

 

AKT976

AQJ

4

965

 

South deals, do you get to 4S (1C, 1C ruff, 1D, 2H and 5S at least?). Of course you do, easy bridge, and this is what my opponents did too. But as the opponent of this pair, I defend perfectly and hold them to exactly their sure 10 tricks. Good bridge by both, right? Sure. But as EW I lose 4 imps, and NS gains 4 imps. So while the entire field should be in 4S, many did not reach it, and some overreached to 6S.

 

If you get four of these 4 imp loses (asI did) and throw in that one of slam against you and you can't win an event of 8 or 12 or 16 boards.... I was actually lucky to squeeze out a modest +13 imps for the event.

 

Now what was happening to the event winner? Were they picking up 3 and 4 imps for normal games? No that isn't enough either... Let's take a look at just two of their winning hands....

 

EW/vul

KJ3

AJ83

75

J763

A5 QT8762

KT9653 4

JT K64

KQ4 982

94

Q7

AQ9832

AT3

 

E S W N

2S 3D 3H X all pass

 

At your table, you might bid 3NT as NS, and if you guess right, you might make it, for a loss of 1.6 imps while the winners are racking up nearly a positive 12 imps. And if you stop in a part-score as NS, you lose 5 imps, and if you guess wrong and go down in 3NT? You lose 9 imps. So, NO MATTER what you do as NS on this hand at your table, you are going negative if the opponent's don't hand you a gift. This is because of gifts at the other tables (4Sx, 3Hx, 2Hx).

 

Does that mean the "winners" used a better system than you? Of course not. Does that mean you played poorly? No. You just were not in position to win, and at Pair-IMPs this happens a fairly large amount of the time... especially in 8 board events. If your opponents can bid 5 laydown games out of 8, you simply will not be able to win, because that will be five 2 to 4 imp loses for you. So if you sitting the way that the five games went, and you bid all five for plus imp scores...does your winning or losing depends upon how you handle the other three? Nope, you are already screwed again. Why? The HUGE scores are for the players sitting the other way whose opponents miss three or more of these games. On those hand, they pick up 6 to 10 imps each. ARGHHH.. you can only win if a) you don't have the five game hands, and :) your opponents don't bid the games. Pair Imps requires good players everywhere or it is a crapshoot.

 

Now at matchpoint, np. On the 3Hx hand, bidding and making 3NT would be 66.7% score (losing to 4Sx, 3Hx, 2Hx, 3NTx, and 3NT+1). But still, you control your destiny.

 

The second hand from the event winners

 

AQJT642

A9

4

T95

K75 83

3 QJ764

J52 K873

J87643 A2

9

KT852

AQT96

KQ

 

S N

1H 4S

4N 5H

6H All pass

 

Yes, the winners, were the EW pair again (the same guys who doubled off 3H's). Again, did they have an outstanding system? Nope, They just sat there and racked in 11.2 imps. And if you held the EW cards? Your NS opponents bid to a tame 4S and you lost 3.9 imps.

 

Did your opponents out play you by 15 imps on this hand? Was their system superior? Of course not. Welcome to wildness of pair imps game in a weak field.

 

IMPS is very well suited for TEAM game, where you can rely on your partners to bid the cold games, and slams. Now it is your skill (as a four man team) against their's. In a strong field, IMPs is also a great pair game. You can rely on the field to do the right thing, so you get richly rewarded for good decisions, and get normal results for normal bridge. But in BBO pair events, every laydown game your opponents reach, figure you lose imps. Every cold game you reach, figure you win imps, and to actually win, you need to catch a few lucky breaks like the pair above did. Two of those, and normal bridge elsewhere at least you have a shot at winning. No gifts in a BBO IMP game with 30 tables or so? Then very little chance of first no matter how you play because SOMEBODY is getting the gifts.

 

Ben

[luis]

EW/vul

KJ3

AJ83

75

J763

A5 QT8762

KT9653 4

JT K64

KQ4 982

94

Q7

AQ9832

AT3

 

E S W N

2S 3D 3H X all pass

 

Not bidding 3s on the Ax after pd opened 2s and 3h is doubled is a very serious crime. Not only because it's one of the worst bids of the year but because you are insulting your pd.

Sometimes I examine hands, it's fun I llike to blacklist players like this west so I can't accidentally end up playing with him :-)

[EricK]

EW/vul

KJ3

AJ83

75

J763

A5 QT8762

KT9653 4

JT K64

KQ4 982

94

Q7

AQ9832

AT3

 

E S W N

2S 3D 3H X all pass

 

Not bidding 3s on the Ax after pd opened 2s and 3h is doubled is a very serious crime. Not only because it's one of the worst bids of the year but because you are insulting your pd.

Sometimes I examine hands, it's fun I llike to blacklist players like this west so I can't accidentally end up playing with him :-)

 

 

Or perhaps the East player on a previous board opened 2S on Txxxx, and West is rightly worried that he has done it again :)

[mishovnbg]

 

I think this is a difficult issue, for poles their system is standard, but most sayc players found polish club an evil invention that was created to destroy them, the second statement is usually materialized and complains begin.

Why aren't we alerting our SAYC bids to poles? Because we think they are natural and so they think their bids are natural.

Being PC an easy to learn and fun to play system I'd just recommend you that it's better to study the system and have a better understanding of the auctions they produce than asking a zillion questions. You will find that you can bid better, lead better and defend better if you know your opps system. You know what can they have and what they can't, it's impossible to transmit in a tiny box all the inferences and conclusions that can be obtained by someone that know the system.

 

 

Playing BBO standart (SAYC) or BBO 2/1 you no need to alert your bids, because anybody can read about in BBO library and it is standart system for BBO. Any other system or additional agreements must be alerted. Polish players can think what they like, but MUST follow rules of BBO. Additional job for volunteer director is not welcome, i know...

Even you know opponent's system ( i personally played polish club ( WJ, NS ) about year ) you cannot know version/additions of it. Your words Luis remember me beautyfull times when i was ardent and naive young man 8).

To win you dont need to know many systems, you need to know only partner's system ;D. About opponent's system you can just ask, including possible other bids. Transformation of player into a walking/living encydopedia can lead only to madhouse.

I think that advanced/expert polish player know that he must alert 1CL opening, but we can just ask polish yellow about...

Misho

[luis]

To win you dont need to know many systems, you need to know only partner's system

 

You should be a good guesser, I prefer to know than to guess :-)

[JRG]

To win you dont need to know many systems, you need to know only partner's system

 

You should be a good guesser, I prefer to know than to guess :-)

 

Misho is correct. Bridge is supposed to be a game of full disclosure. Not disclosing is cheating, pure and simple.

 

Luis, you are also correct, if you actually know the opponents' system, you have an advantage that you don't, in practice, get from full disclosure. I think one of the major advantages is knowledge gained from negative inferences, although, in theory, full disclosure should give you all the information you are entitled to. An example of the sort of thing I mean is, that I haven't really seen on BBO (although as a kibitzer I am not privy to private chat between one pair and their opponents):

 

My partner and I alert our one-suited Brozel double of an opponent's 1NT opening as "A one-suited hand, keeping in mind that we have ways to show two-suited hands". So we try to adhere to the spirit of full disclosure.

 

Note that the "rules" (I am pretty sure) don't require me to explain anything about any other bid in our system except the bid made. Having said that, I believe if an opponent were to ASK if we had a way of showing two-suited hands, I would be required to answer that we do.

 

John

[luis]

Luis, you are also correct, if you actually know the opponents' system, you have an advantage that you don't, in practice, get from full disclosure. I think one of the major advantages is knowledge gained from negative inferences, although, in theory, full disclosure should give you all the information you are entitled to. An example of the sort of thing I mean is, that I haven't really seen on BBO (although as a kibitzer I am not privy to private chat between one pair and their opponents)

 

John, tks for understanding my point, even with super-full disclosure you can't have the same amount and quality of information than a player that knows the system. Knowing what were all the options that a player had and didn't use is a very valuable piece of information. If your opps play super-precision and the auction starts 1c-1s;1n-2x;2s you can get alerted that 1n asked for controls and that 2s is a trump asking bid, but you don't know anything about declarer's hand. Can declarer have for example 3 spades and a side minor suit with say AQxxx ? If you know the system you know it would be unlikely since he would have started with an sking bid in the side suit followed by a support bid and then 4c asking for controls to get a better picture of pd's hand.... Now how can you get this level of disclosure at the table? Impossible, opener can't comment al the possible asking bids and sequences he could have used because that would take many hours.

 

It's not true that you don't have to know your opps system to play better, because the more information you have the better your decisions will be.

 

In team matches or team championships I really like to understand my opps system at a level I could have played with them, it helps me to prepare a defense to know when a particular preempt can be more damaging, when they can be concealing a fit and prone to interference, when they are just missbiding, etc.

[mishovnbg]

To win you dont need to know many systems, you need to know only partner's system

 

You should be a good guesser, I prefer to know than to guess :-)

 

I think that, if you prefer to know, than to guess, may be better for you to play chess, Luis. Playing Bridge you must guess almost every board. To know partner's system doesnt mean to play with him "2/1 with agreed gadgets". But you must know, for example, can he open weak 2 in not vul with 5 cards and 5332 distribution; if he dbl for penalty, it is for -1 or -2 .... As my partner Marian (Marit) said: " System is not what we wrote on paper partner ( we play very artifical system with transfers and relays even in competition ). System partner, is what we talk with you, while drinking several cisterns of beer 8) "

Misho

[luis]

I think that, if you prefer to know, than to guess, may be better for you to play chess, Luis. Playing Bridge you must guess almost every board.

 

It is clear that we have different point of views of this game my friend Misho. My goal with any partner is to work hard on the system and the partnership style to prevent us from guessing.

Good players are not best guessers they just have to guess less than the average players.

I wish you luck with your guessing game, I prefer to study :-)

[Rhutobello]

from Luis

I wish you luck with your guessing game, I prefer to study :-)

 

LOL, I think there might be a language barriere here. From earliere posts from Misho, I know he agree with you on study of different systems, he has even told me that the only way I can improve my game is to know about my oponents, and how to handle them :(

 

I belive what he ment are; we have all most to gain if "you and partner" talk the same language(same system) ,many times with a pick up partner you don't, even if both have the same starting point, iow sayc, 2-1,..and if you transfer this to two oponents who have their own system, and their own way to see things, then it dosen't help that much, what you know about other systems, but it gives you an advantage to make an good guess ::( ;D

 

But I might be wrong :) so I give you both a big smile instead ;D

 

[mishovnbg]

 

It is clear that we have different point of views of this game my friend Misho. My goal with any partner is to work hard on the system and the partnership style to prevent us from guessing.

Good players are not best guessers they just have to guess less than the average players.

I wish you luck with your guessing game, I prefer to study :-)

Dear Luis, i ofcourse agree that knoledge can help. As i wrote i play very difficulte system and also study it with my partner. But great game Bridge is based on much guessing too, unlike chess. And is sure that winers except good players are also very good guessers. Thank you for wishes i hope it will be as you wrote. I wish you your hard work to be sucsessfull and often to know, instead of guess.

Misho