Should either of us move?

[The It]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq43hakt972dac632&n=sakjt765hj8dj42ck&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1sp2h(GF)p2sp3sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

2/1 FG, (2H promises 5)

 

My partner and I have discussed this hand together and feel that he (North) is worth a 4C bid rather than just showing a hand with 6 Spades and not much else by bidding 4.

 

However, as South I feel that if 4C were to be bid at the table, I wouldn't be moving because of my 3 small clubs - if partner has Kxx and nowhere to make the discards on the hearts, then we've obviously got a few losers. And similarly, if North sees me bid 4D, looking at Jxx isn't a hopeful sign opposite Axx.

 

Would you be moving with either hand, if:

 

a) It's pairs at a local club and the room is average opposition (if that changes your choice), the majority of the time, they're not in slams.

 

b) It's pairs at a congress

 

c) It's teams

 

Thanks in advance

[Cyberyeti]

Your comment about ♣Kxx is wide of the mark.

 

Imagine ♠AKJxxx, ♣Kxx what's the worst he can have:

 

xx/xx in the reds ? draw 2 trumps, ruff a heart high, 6 spades 5 hearts and a diamond is with the odds.

x/xxx is much worse but not terrible, particularly on a non trump lead, and on this sort of auction with 2 long suits about it's quite possible the A♣ will be cashed as the opening lead before it runs away particularly at pairs. If partner has ♥J or Q or ♣Q or a 7th spade the odds markedly improve.

 

Opinion is divided about splintering with a stiff A, but 1♠-2♥-2♠-4♦ is another possible start, if partner thinks you have Qxx, AKxxxx, x, Axx he will as it happens judge it correctly, but might not if he had ♦K rather than ♣K.

 

Do you have any agreement what 3N means over 3♠ ? It would be nice if 3N was a slam try without a singleton, so 4♣ was shortage, in which case the S hand is now vast, but most people use it for something else (mainly serious/frivolous). Another possible meaning if you only cue first round controls is none to cue but still some slam interest, now when S bids 4♦ N can see probable 5 level safety and bid 5♣ over which partner should bid the slam with ♥AK and ♠ Q.

 

I think 4♣ from N is clear, and I'd probably just keycard over that, partner shows 2+Q due to the 7th one and now it's clear to bid the slam, the worst it can be is on leading up to K♣ and it's likely to be a lot better than that.

[Fluffy]

As steve is pointing out you are missevaluating AKxxxx as a side suit for slam, it is 5/6 tricks most often than not.

[MrAce]

I agree with Cyber and Gonzalo that you are undervaluing the S hand after 4cl cue, IMHO

[The It]

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3NT is serious here.

 

I can see where my thoughts of the 4C cue is a big undervaluation, and the hearts certainly have a huge trick source.

 

Thanks for the replies all!

[helene_t]

If 3NT is serious then I think North has a 4♣ bid and then South knows enough.

 

Without serious (or nonserious) 3NT it would be difficult.

[phil_20686]

That isnt strictly true helene. This is a situation where many might play, for example, that 4x from opener is shortage, and 3N is just no shortage. In practice its virtually impossible for opener to have serious after a 2S bid, he has to have something like 17-18 with 6 poor spades in order to not have a different bid from 2S.

 

I also encourage you to think about how to use your 2N bid over 2S. here I might bid 2N to ask about the shape, and opener could now bid 4c splinter showing a minimum with an almost self sufficient spade suit. That would certainly do the job.

 

I have almost no idea what the consensus is on these auctions though. I really very much dislike bidding 3S here if partner has the option of just bidding 4S, so often this auction gest inot trouble when response has a game force with spades. Either (1) Jump to 4S with no slam interest so 3S always shows slam interest and more or less compels an action from opener. (2) Add some extra gadget using 2N over 2S.

[The It]

That isnt strictly true helene. This is a situation where many might play, for example, that 4x from opener is shortage, and 3N is just no shortage. In practice its virtually impossible for opener to have serious after a 2S bid, he has to have something like 17-18 with 6 poor spades in order to not have a different bid from 2S.

 

I also encourage you to think about how to use your 2N bid over 2S. here I might bid 2N to ask about the shape, and opener could now bid 4c splinter showing a minimum with an almost self sufficient spade suit. That would certainly do the job.

 

I have almost no idea what the consensus is on these auctions though. I really very much dislike bidding 3S here if partner has the option of just bidding 4S, so often this auction gest inot trouble when response has a game force with spades. Either (1) Jump to 4S with no slam interest so 3S always shows slam interest and more or less compels an action from opener. (2) Add some extra gadget using 2N over 2S.

 

Would you suggest mirroring a Jacoby 2NT system here with 2NT after 2S then? Would that have any downfalls? 2NT showing some sort of 3 card support

[gszes]

don't beat yourself up too much because we are all limited by the conventions

(or lack of) we are using at the time. My personal bidding for the hand

 

1s

2h 2/1 gf

3s max 1 loser suit 6+ cards suit quality bid nothing about power

4d cue

4h last train showing club control not enough to take control of bidding

4n rkc

5h 2 keys no spade Q

6s

 

This sequence relies on the ability of responder to envision the power of the

AKxxxx heart suit for slam purposes. Standard methods may have to take some risk

and move beyond game or risk showing too strong a hand if they cue.

[msjennifer]

I would bid not 2spade but 3spade over 2 hearts.I think the rest depends upon the partnership agreements.

[m1cha]

Wouldn't 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♦ be Splinter, and if so wouldn't that show what N needs to know?

[Cyberyeti]

Wouldn't 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♦ be Splinter, and if so wouldn't that show what N needs to know?

 

It would, but as I pointed out earlier, many players won't splinter a stiff A as partner tends to think KQxx is a bad holding if you do

[rmnka447]

How about bidding a 4 ♦ (splinter) over 2 ♠?

 

With just a game going hand, you could have bid 4 ♠. With a game going hand, ♦ shortness, and 4 trump, you would splinter directly. With more than a game going hand, diamond shortness and 4 trump, you'd use the 2 NT Jacoby raise.

 

With a game going hand with ♥s and ♦s, you'd simply bid 3 ♦ over 2 ♠.

 

So what can 4 ♦ show except some slam interest (i.e. extras), ♦ shortness, and very likely only 3 trump.