inquiry Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 An interesting hand from a tournment yesterday that, sad to say, generated some ill will at the table.... Imps both vul... you hold.... S-J963H-Q72D-J762C-62 You hear.... RHO-YOU-LHO-PARD 1D Pass 1H DBL 2D ? (you play sandwich NT as weakish takeout, double as strong takeout, 2NT as distributional takeout). You got to be kidding right? What else but pass? Well, if you are a devoted disiciple of the Robson/Segal school of mix it up and bid to the lawful limit school, this hand is "sound" free bid of 2S. LOL... well sound maynot be the word for it. However, R/S even describe almost this hand (well it is a minor) in a chapter 2 auction while discussing potentially competitive auctions (Well this is actually competitive here). So I bravely went trot out with a lawful 2S's....on the theory that I would have raised a spade overcall even at this vul, so I "raise" my partner here.... The bidding continued..2S (me) -pass-7S by partner... GACK.... - all pass Who knew, I survived this wackness... dummy hit with the following dummy, making the slam roughly 53%. (S2-2 or stiff Queen). S-AKTxxH-AxD-voidC-AKQTxx Anyone else make this kind of free bid? If so, could you comment on frequency of total disaster versus some kind oof nice success (opponnets overbid, underbid, get to wrong strain?). At the table, the 1 Heart bidder, who bid on a 2-5-3-3 hand with one Jack I think, was very upset that I took a "free bid" with only 4 points. Would you comment badly about the 2S bid if you were a defender who had bid a free 1H on a one point? Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 I really dont like 2SP bid Ben with only 4 cards. Additionally not usefull QHE and JDI for own contract.What do you think your partner will bid with same hand but 1SP less and 1 more card in other suit? I think again 7SP, now very bad contract. If you believe to god Law and trust to your partner best bid in my opinion is dbl as fit response, because for good partner is clear that you havent more then several hcp, so you cant bid without SP fit. Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 Hi friend Misho.... One example I remember from R/S book in hand that looks like this... Game allS-xxH-xxxxD-JxxxC-xxx And the bidding goes... (1C)-P-(1S)-2D(P)- ? And they recommend bidding 3D joyfully. Then go on with a long description of why pass is losing bridge..... I have started applying the same logic... raises preemptive and here after the sandwich double... I am raising partners suit. With a good hand, I bid 2H or dbl... direct raise weak, can be dirt weak, and preemptive. And I agree...2S is shaky... I did worry about it when I bid it and was really worried when partner found 7S bid.... What I want to know is what experience others have with this kind of wild eyed bidding. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 I just read Robson/Segal's book. I think it is a great book, and I think 2s is acceptable, provided pd has some idea about this kind preemptive bid. But I'd be very cautious when playing with random pd. In the given hand, if you hold strong hand, then you should bid 2N first, right? here 2N is strong raise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm in the club of the 2s bidders. Didn't read the book, would love to but impossible to get it here :-) at least we have the best meat in the world.... 8-) I once commented that if we double in sandwich to compete then we compete, we don't double just to let them know where are the cards if they play the hand, we aim to play the hand.And the 2s bid having two cuebids available and a 2NT bid cannot be encouraging at all.7s? Crazy but fun bid. Since we are almost sure to get a good result playing 6s why risk 7 missing the trump Q? At the table I'm sure I'd have jumped to 5NT asking to bid 7 with 2 trump honors, 6c with 0 and 6d with 1. So I'd have played a peaceful 6s and congratulate my pd for bidding 2s."It's what we do, it's in our nature" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 If you want to bid 2S on this, I don't know why the opps are complaining. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I must admit that I would think of bidding 2S but would probably pass unless I was feeling frisky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Didn't read the book, would love to but impossible to get it here :-) at least we have the best meat in the world.... 8-) I think that the book is available online in pdf format (unfortunatley I don't have a link for it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 The link for Robson/Segal is: http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000/sys/ in the More Stuff section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Eric & pb, thanks for the link!Got it and reading it now :-) I do have "contested auctions" by Mike Lawrence and found interesting to compare both books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 If you are reading Robson/Segal... an interesting point he makes about light preempts in chapter 3. I forget the wording, but it goes along the lines of licenses to be wild. Some has to do with position, some has to do with vulnerability, but the really interesting discussion, and what has paid huge dividends for me is paying attention to the concept he called....implied fit and undisclosed fit. I don't have my copy with me, be an illustration I remember is a comparision of two hands and they ask which would be a better weak two bid to open? KxxQTxxxxxxxx or xQTxxxxxxxxKxx At first the answer they gave surprised me, but I have found the logic to be sound and more importantly than theory, the result following their advice has been very pleasing. Warning too... there are a fair number of typos in various auctions in the book. If you read the text, you will see that the "bid" or the "double" in places should be pass ... etc. I would point them out (I have them all marked in my copy), but the book requires very careful reading, and rereading before you understand it anyway. We could start a contest too see who finds the most such bids...but finding them will help with your understanding I think. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 I didn't reach chapter 3 yet, but I would say that the 2nd hand is better because you are preempting an undisclosed spade fit your opps may have.Am I right? An implied fit in my bidding theory dictionary is a fit known only by 1 player for example if you open 1c and pd bids 1d, now RHO bids 1s and you pass with Jxx of diammonds, then you have an implied fit in diammonds, because you know it but yout pd no. I just read the first pages of ch1 mainly on Jump Fits and similar concepts, I'm familiar with that stuff but I like a lot how the material is presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 While I was finding the Neill site, I downloaded a very aggressive overcall structure: http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/system/foutnote.txt What do you think of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 While I was finding the Neill site, I downloaded a very aggressive overcall structure:http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/system/foutnote.txtWhat do you think of it? I used to play a lot with M.De Carlo, a local expert in biding systems and general bidding theory. He deviced many systems: "The relay club, Tamarindo, The Chameleon, Titanium" with several different goals and design principles. All the systems were combined with an overcalling system called "Stealth" the idea was to have a system when they opened the bidding. This overcalling system was the key to all our wins. Why do I mention this? Because his overcalling system used power doubles and NT for takeout as the overcalling sys described in Daniel's page. I must edit and publish the notes for the overcalling system somewhere. My contribution to your question: Power doubles are fine because they limit your 1x and 2x overcalls as well as the 1nt overcall, then it's easy to make limit bids by advancer. we used a relay to the double as the negative with all the other bids being game-forcing. The 1NT for takeout bid is great, opps usually have problems with this treatment and you are in a very confortable position in the auction. We decided that 1NT was always a 4-4-3-2 takeout with 2 cards in opener's suit and 11-14 HCP. Then the cuebid was an asking bid and overcaller indicated his 3 card suit with steps responses1st step = same color as declarer's suit2nd step = same range as declarer's suit3rd step = the remaining suitThen advancer knew the exact distribution of overcaller and that was really good to investigate game/slam chances. A new realy was asking for controls. We complemeted power doubles and 1NT for takeout with 1x bids for two suited hands (including 5-4) and 2x overcalls for 1 suited hands 11-15 hcp (no weak 2s). Relays were used to know the exact distribution and controls of overcallers. Our best result was a relay auction to end up playing 3 spades because we didn't have enough controls for game :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hi, I played overcall structure for about 2 years. Let me say this about it... it creates a lot of swings. The 1NT overcall in particular can be entertaining. I recommend the following if you are going to play it... Only play it non-vul at first, and especially at imps. You can't believe the number of times I was killed with the 1NT overcall for huge numbers. But, experience shows, they will leave your misfit 2C or 2D contract alone after the 1NT overcall not vul and bid their own game. If you digest Robson Segal and become a true believer, you will find you don't particularily enjoy power doubles as much as maybe Luis... the reason is the same as after a strong club opening... 1S - X - 2S/3S/4S... or 1S - X - 3C/3D (fit jumps)... They have found their fit, they have limited their hands, and you have not yet even begun to show your stuff. I now just bid what I have.... dbls of low level bids are shape specific, overcalls show long suits (I do over call 4 cards suits at the 1 level and don't tell anyone, but at matchpoint, even 3 card suits extremely occassionally). Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 "I do over call 4 cards suits at the 1 level and don't tell anyone, but at matchpoint, even 3 card suits extremely occassionally" Generally, what is alertable on overcalls. I assume the NT for takeout is.What about very weak 4 card overcalls, and the power double? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 As long as your overcall is natural... four card overcalls do not need to be alerted. You are bidding a suit, your partner can pass...or raise. If you ALWAYS overcall only with a five card suit even at the one level, I suspect that might be an alertable. Who knows, maybe I am backwards. If you play power doubles and overcall structure 1NT's, get use to alerting everything. You double it is an alert... x points, basically any distribution. If you overcall you alert, less than x points, lacks three card support in all unbid suits (or you bid 1NT), if you over call 1NT you alert, 3 card support for all unbid suits, may even be 7-3-3-0 with a great 7 card suit (if you play pure overcall structure). As for overcalling 3 card suit, I guess if you made a habit of it someone probabably should tell the opponents. I have done this about 4 or five times in my life, and it hasn't proved that useful. I did once overcalled 1D opening bid with 2C (not vul versus vul) on AKQJ of clubs and flat distribution. They stayed out of laydown 3NT clubs were 4-3-3-3 and I got a top when they forgot to double me in 2C's.... I would have won four tricks if they had started trumps. Partner was 4-4 in the majors and would score a major trick in either major suit game. Without a trump lead, I could have managed a diamond ruff for a fifth trick. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Most important idea in R/S book in my opinion is not j/nj fit shifts, variable preempts ... and other entertaining stuff. Base is who succeed first to made his partner "commander" of deal probably will win it. Methods of R/S is only one way to do it and no need to be believer of god "R/S" or god "LTTC". Wining Bridge is Bridge of right decisions - technical knowledge can help, but can not replace it. You must help to partner for his decision as early as possible and you must play system of bidding ( marking too ) that allow him to do it. Take out double with any hand: strong, weak, balanced, distributional, 2 way ... work well only in "low and slow" auctions. For example how he can make right decision after often meet (1major)-dbl-(3major) auction, if he havent "clear" hand? Answer is that he must simple guess with 2-3 cards in opp fit. Partner can have balanced hand with more hcp and in this case is better to dbl opp or play 3NT, but he can also have distributional hand and in same case is better to play own contract. Ofcourse, if you are good "shooter", like me or Ben, then no problems :). Competitive system of bidding must show DISTRIBUTION FIRST and leave hcp to be shown to your partner by opp bids. This give him much more chances to make wining decision instead of dbl with wild distribution like 5440 or 6520 ( i still remember that dbl friend ::( ). My prefered system of overcalls: DBL: normal take out, may be little stronger, without wild distribution. 1NT: 4+ card in major - 5+ or 4441/5440 cue bid and 2NT: 2 suiters with opening+ (rule of 18) hand. 3 level cue bid: strong 1 suited hand without stop in opp suit or with slam interes. Jump suit: general weak, but depend of opp opening hcp and passed partner. Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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