What is standard for responder's reverse?

[Cascade]

What is standard for responder's reverse?

 

Does this depend on system - some form of standard American or Acol or Precision?

[mikeh]

I can't speak of acol, and I haven't played the current versions of precision, but my understanding has always been that in standard-based methods, responder's reverse is gf.

[whereagles]

Indeed. I know of no one playing it as non-GF.

[gordontd]

Indeed. I know of no one playing it as non-GF.

I play it as only a one-round force with a couple of my partners. We prefer to bid both suits in the natural order with something like a 4135 11-count. But I acknowledge that playing it as GF is standard.

[mcphee]

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.

[gordontd]

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.

The question is about responders' reverses, not openers'.

[lamford]

The question is about responders' reverses, not openers'.

I wondered why it was in Expert-Class bridge ...

[Cascade]

I wondered why it was in Expert-Class bridge ...

 

I wanted expert opinion. Maybe its the wrong place to get that ...

[aguahombre]

Reversing into a suit Opener cannot have seems automatic as a game force, and might not even be a righteous suit.

[Cascade]

What do you bid with

 

♠ AQxx

♥ KQJxx

♦ xx(x)

♣ x(x)

 

4531 or 4522

 

Make it 4531 if you would raise with 4522. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point ♠ AQJx or ♥ AQJxx or similar?

[awm]

What do you bid with

 

♠ AQxx

♥ KQJxx

♦ xx(x)

♣ x(x)

 

5431 or 5422

 

Make it 5431 if you would raise with 5422. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point ♠ AQJx or ♥ AQJxx or similar?

 

I assume you are giving me an invitational 4531 (in that order) opposite opener's 1♣...2♣ sequence. I'd bid 2NT. Sure it is conceivable that this wrong-sides our notrump contract, or that a 6-1 club fit is a better partial than 2NT. However, against this it becomes much easier to time out the auction when I have a game force hand, and surely this particular pattern with specifically nothing in diamonds is a rare beast. Partner will bid 3♥ on the way to game if he has three of them (in fact partner would have raised to 2♥ on three with a lot of unbalanced hands already) so no fear of missing a heart fit here.

[aguahombre]

What do you bid with

 

♠ AQxx

♥ KQJxx

♦ xx(x)

♣ x(x)

 

5431 or 5422

 

Make it 5431 if you would raise with 5422. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point ♠ AQJx or ♥ AQJxx or similar?

2D seems like a reasonable stall. 2NT with a diamond card sometimes.

[aguahombre]

dupe deleted

[Cascade]

I assume you are giving me an invitational 4531 (in that order) opposite opener's 1♣...2♣ sequence.

 

Yes thanks. I have corrected.

[dboxley]

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.

 

Reread the question

[Finch]

I originally learnt it as a one round force only, but now play it as game forcing along with everyone else.

[Cascade]

After more research it looks like this depends on system even though the poll is strongly in favour of game forcing.

 

Trustcott's "The Bidding Dictionary" gives this as ?12+ which means slightly flexible at the lower end. He also states it is FG.

 

On the other hand Crowhurst's "Acol Index" for the equivalent auction 1D 1H; 2D 2S says 10+ Forcing. In "Precision bidding in Acol" he describes 1C 1D; 2C 2S by "It shows the values for 2NT, at least, and directs partners attention to the weakness in hearts.

 

Clearly I haven't played enough Standard American to have learnt that it was forcing to game.

[gnasher]

After more research it looks like this depends on system even though the poll is strongly in favour of game forcing.

 

Trustcott's "The Bidding Dictionary" gives this as ?12+ which means slightly flexible at the lower end. He also states it is FG.

 

On the other hand Crowhurst's "Acol Index" for the equivalent auction 1D 1H; 2D 2S says 10+ Forcing. In "Precision bidding in Acol" he describes 1C 1D; 2C 2S by "It shows the values for 2NT, at least, and directs partners attention to the weakness in hearts.

 

Clearly I haven't played enough Standard American to have learnt that it was forcing to game.

 

Notwithstanding what Crowhurst wrote, I think it became game-forcing amongst Acol tournament players in England in about 1990. For example, the EBU's Standard English system file say's it's game-forcing.

[Cascade]

Notwithstanding what Crowhurst wrote, I think it became game-forcing amongst Acol tournament players in England in about 1990. For example, the EBU's Standard English system file say's it's game-forcing.

 

Thanks and interesting since the Acol Index was published around 10 years later in 2000.

[rhm]

What do you bid with

 

♠ AQxx

♥ KQJxx

♦ xx(x)

♣ x(x)

 

4531 or 4522

 

Make it 4531 if you would raise with 4522. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point ♠ AQJx or ♥ AQJxx or similar?

I would say if opener is limited and responder reverses it is game forcing on opener only.

Kit Woolsey has no qualms forcing to game with an invitational hand, if that will make the decision more informed to reach the best game, and who am I to argue with him.

With your actual hand there is not much wrong with 2NT protecting your spades. But with say ♠AKxx ♥ KJxxx ♦xx ♣xx 2♠ might be preferable.

So what?

It is unlikely that 2NT just making is available. So the likely worst scenario is that you go down one more in 3NT than you would have in 2NT

But if opener just bids 3♣ over 2♠ I would not call it a crime to pass 3♣.

Just do not make this a habit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

I also learned it as a one round force and it was exposure to North Americans that led to my finding out this was not universal. I was also quite surprised that it had permeated England enough to be included in the EBU MEA file. Anyone playing outside of London still seeing the old-fashioned way on a regular basis? How about Scotland and Wales?

[helene_t]

I think it is universally played as a gf in Dutch Acol. In English Acol, where opener's rebid of his first suit can be a 5-card suit, you are sometimes stuck for a bid with invitational hands that cannot raise, so invitational+ makes sense. In a strong-nt system where opener's suit will almost always be six, gf makes more sense.

 

I would assume a 1-round force with an generic English club player as partner. Very few bids below 2NT force to game in English Acol by default. Probably most serious Acol pairs play it as a GF, but that is by explicit agreement, not by system default I think. One strong Acol player I once played with liked to play a 2-way 1NT rebid so that rebidding the opening suit showed six, and responder's reverse was a GF.