Adjust ? and if so to what ?

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&w=s72hq4d987432c965&e=sk3hak9daq6ckqj84&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2dp2n(good%2C%20asking)ppp]266|200|see below[/hv]

 

2♦ by system is 4+4+ majors, weakish, and was alerted, then announced as such when asked by S, who was unhappy that W then passed out 2N. This went -2 when S showed up with ♠AQJ10xxx, NS can make 2♠, no more.

 

Presumably W will show bad hand or bad hand bad suit whichever he plays if he thinks he's playing a weak 2, and then what does E do ? Knowing the players I suspect their arrangement for weak 2s would be fairly classical, so this is already a bent bid, and E should be bidding 3N.

 

Sorry I mistyped, should be UI rather than MI.

[RMB1]

Systemically, what are the responses to 2NT?

[Vampyr]

Systemically, what are the responses to 2NT?

The law has an error in cases like this. The question should really be 'what would the systemic responses to 2NT be if they were playing a weak 2?'

[Cyberyeti]

The law has an error in cases like this. The question should really be 'what would the systemic responses to 2NT be if they were playing a weak 2?'

 

Exactly, I suspect they bid a long suit feature with a maximum and repeat the suit with a minimum when playing a weak 2, I have no idea what 3♦ is in response to the 2N 44M relay and I suspect neither do they (scratch partnership that randomly agreed to play this without much discussion).

[paulg]

Pretty sure I can find a normal sequence to 6♦ doubled. Then a PP for West.

[RMB1]

The law has an error in cases like this. The question should really be 'what would the systemic responses to 2NT be if they were playing a weak 2?'

 

I wanted to know (about 2♦-2NT-3m) to determine what responder would do, but it appears that 2NT was just passing the time of day with no agreed responses. If East takes 3m as a feature then he will be encouraged but with no agreements he can't find out about a fifth heart. East is very likely to bid 3NT which West can pass.

 

Does South have enough to double 3NT? Can East redouble, to play? More knowable unknowns.

 

I fancy adjusting to a weighted mixture of 3NT-3 NS +150, 3NTX-3 NS +500, 3NTXX-3 NS +1000.

[Cyberyeti]

S's hand was AQJ10xxx, J10x, K, xx so not enough to double, declarer has ♠Kx, N has basically A♣ and out so unlikely to double.

[PhilKing]

Hang West high!

[helene_t]

Pretty sure I can find a normal sequence to 6♦ doubled. Then a PP for West.

Or maybe 6♥XX. West rebids something that shows five hearts.

[paulg]

Pretty sure I can find a normal sequence to 6♦ doubled. Then a PP for West.

 

Or maybe 6♥XX. West rebids something that shows five hearts.

I was giving the offending side some degreee of latitude in that West had already run from 5♥ redoubled.

[ahydra]

Are we sure West forgot the system, rather than psyched? I mean, that doesn't look like a first-seat weak two to me.

 

If West psyched, he can do whatever he wants next. And East has no UI, so no issues there.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Are we sure West forgot the system, rather than psyched? I mean, that doesn't look like a first-seat weak two to me.

 

If West psyched, he can do whatever he wants next. And East has no UI, so no issues there.

 

ahydra

 

W thought he was opening substandard weak 2, I'm not sure what the director does if he claimed to have psyched the 44M variant.

[helene_t]

W thought he was opening substandard weak 2, I'm not sure what the director does if he claimed to have psyched the 44M variant.

That would have been a self-serving claim which I wouldn't normally believe.

[barmar]

W thought he was opening substandard weak 2, I'm not sure what the director does if he claimed to have psyched the 44M variant.

I thought he meant that he might have been psyching a weak 2. While he has the appropriate length, 2 points all outside the suit could be considered a gross misrepresentation of his strength.

 

Since they're a pick-up partnership, they probably never discussed weak 2 style very much. The default assumption would probably be something "normal", not that piece of cheese.

[Cyberyeti]

I thought he meant that he might have been psyching a weak 2. While he has the appropriate length, 2 points all outside the suit could be considered a gross misrepresentation of his strength.

 

Since they're a pick-up partnership, they probably never discussed weak 2 style very much. The default assumption would probably be something "normal", not that piece of cheese.

 

Where the borderline is between substandard and psychic is always a movable feast. The players have played at the same clubs for years and know each others' general styles, I played with E last week and have played with W before, so it's a partnership that understands partner's general style, but may not have concrete agreements. Both players' general styles would be 4-8/5-9 6 card suit ish.

[weejonnie]

"West thought that he was opening a substandard weak 2".

 

Therefore West should make his next call as though East has responded 2NT to a weak 2. If this is a forcing response then the question becomes: Is pass demonstrably suggested by the UI? The answer is obviously Yes as West is basically panicking (hoping not to be doubled). So the next step is: are there any logical alternatives? Answer 'Yes' - the correct response to 2 Diamonds: 2NT. Now I don't know what the system response is but I cannot see East doing anything else but launching the Old Blackwood and ending up in <some silly 5-level contract - doubled or redoubled> Even 3NT (X or XX) can go more than 3 down (losing 6 Spades, a diamond and a club as EW will surely finesse the Diamond as the only chance of getting a plus score)

[mr1303]

I must say I'm not a fan of adjusting to something redoubled here.

 

I have never redoubled a contract like any of those mentioned. I have never felt that I missed out. The times I redouble are to suggest doubt or to show an otherwise good hand after a take-out double. The last time a partner of mine redoubled like that we had a massive falling out after we went for 1000 when trumps didn't break (as you could tell from the double!)

[Cyberyeti]

"West thought that he was opening a substandard weak 2".

 

Therefore West should make his next call as though East has responded 2NT to a weak 2. If this is a forcing response then the question becomes: Is pass demonstrably suggested by the UI? The answer is obviously Yes as West is basically panicking (hoping not to be doubled). So the next step is: are there any logical alternatives? Answer 'Yes' - the correct response to 2 Diamonds: 2NT. Now I don't know what the system response is but I cannot see East doing anything else but launching the Old Blackwood and ending up in <some silly 5-level contract - doubled or redoubled> Even 3NT (X or XX) can go more than 3 down (losing 6 Spades, a diamond and a club as EW will surely finesse the Diamond as the only chance of getting a plus score)

 

I think you're going overboard, W will show a bad weak 2♦ with his next bid and I think E will just bid 3N as W for a bad weak 2 can't have 2 of the 3 missing keycards.

 

Nobody will double 3N and in practice it will go -3 or -4.

[WellSpyder]

I think you're going overboard, W will show a bad weak 2♦ with his next bid and I think E will just bid 3N as W for a bad weak 2 can't have 2 of the 3 missing keycards.

That doesn't sound right. W will show a bad weak 2♦, but E will read it as something quite different. Without knowing both the actual system over their conventional 2♦ and the likely assumed system over a weak 2♦ it is very hard to know what will happen...

[Cyberyeti]

That doesn't sound right. W will show a bad weak 2♦, but E will read it as something quite different. Without knowing both the actual system over their conventional 2♦ and the likely assumed system over a weak 2♦ it is very hard to know what will happen...

 

E has no fit for 4-4M and with that shape, no real chance of slam. I don't know what 3♦ would mean in the 4-4M sequence and I suspect they don't either, but I strongly suspect E just bids 3N as with the 5-5 or 6-5 partner would need for slam to be good, 3♦ is probably not what he bids in an undiscussed sequence.

[paulg]

E has no fit for 4-4M and with that shape, no real chance of slam. I don't know what 3♦ would mean in the 4-4M sequence and I suspect they don't either, but I strongly suspect E just bids 3N as with the 5-5 or 6-5 partner would need for slam to be good, 3♦ is probably not what he bids in an undiscussed sequence.

There is a fairly good chance that you'd expect five hearts for the 3♦ bid. Many use 3♦ to show the 5-5 minimum hand, for example. The fact it is undiscussed is not a valid argument really, since East bid 2NT expecting to gain some information and presumably knows the responses, otherwise why bid 2NT?

[Cyberyeti]

There is a fairly good chance that you'd expect five hearts for the 3♦ bid. Many use 3♦ to show the 5-5 minimum hand, for example. The fact it is undiscussed is not a valid argument really, since East bid 2NT expecting to gain some information and presumably knows the responses, otherwise why bid 2NT?

 

To see if partner bids something exciting at the 4 level, if not he's just bidding 3N ?

 

I was sitting minding my own business with the spade suit, so I don't know what responses are normal as I don't play this. I suspect the 2N bidder (who is an occasional poster on these boards) has a better idea what 3♦ should mean than the person who bid it.

[jallerton]

The law has an error in cases like this. The question should really be 'what would the systemic responses to 2NT be if they were playing a weak 2?'

 

I know that Paul has previously pointed out that the wording of Law 16B could be improved, but this doesn't actually matter in cases like this.

 

Law 73C requires West to continue to assume that he has opened a weak 2♦ and that all the subsequent bids mean whatever he would expect them to mean after a weak 2♦ opener.

 

If East picks up any UI from West, then Law 73C equally requires East to continue to assume that his partner has opened a 'both majors' 2♦ and that all the subsequent bids mean whatever he would expect them to mean after a 'both majors' 2♦ opener.

[Fluffy]

south will bid 3♠ over 2NT with the right info and the contract rates to be 3NT by East 3 down.

[gnasher]

south will bid 3♠ over 2NT with the right info and the contract rates to be 3NT by East 3 down.

South had the right information, and he didn't bid 3♠. 2♦ was systemically both majors, and that's what South was told.