stelst Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 [hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=pp1n4c4h5c5d]133|100[/hv] What is 5♦? TU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'd expect it to be a hand that wants to raise to 5♥ but would like a diamond lead if they continue to 6♣. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'd expect it to be a hand that wants to raise to 5♥ but would like a diamond lead if they continue to 6♣. -- gordontd *** With or without C-control? What suggestion for higher can mystify C-control?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 *** With or without C-control? What suggestion for higher can mystify C-control??I'm not sure I fully understand the question. I'm not likely to have a club control on this auction, although I may well be in a position to infer that partner has a club shortage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 *** With or without C-control? What suggestion for higher can mystify C-control??Doesn't matter, partner's 4♥ bid wasn't a slam try and besides he will probably be short in clubs so not interested in our club control. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Definitely some sort of fit bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 While partner wasn't in any way trying for slam, our hand may have grown up enormously. Picture AJx Axxx AKxx xx on this auction. Partner is a passed hand and any inferences that we can draw will be affected by our style for weak 2 bids, which he didn't use. Would he open 2♥ on say Kxxx KQxxxx Qx x? I wouldn't, altho xxxx in spades wouldn't bother me too much. The point is that if we are going to 5♥, which we will be doing on almost all hands with 4 hearts and nothing in clubs, we have a free shot at telling partner that the auction has made our hand huge. I'm not bidding 5♦ to steer the lead against 6♣. The opps have pushed us to the 5 level, so they have done what they set out to do. Who in their right mind bids as N-S have done and then takes a push to the 6 level? Not many, and even fewer good opps. I'm bidding 5♦ to say to partner that he has truly hit a home run. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelst Posted July 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 [hv=pc=n&w=skt74hkt9754dj74c&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=pp1n4c4h5c5dp]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 [hv=pc=n&w=skt74hkt9754dj74c&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=pp1n4c4h5c5dp]133|200[/hv] 6♥ or 5 NT or 6♦ or 6♣.Anything but pass or bidding 5♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 5♥ here. The hand has 7 losers. The 1NT has an expectancy of 4 cover cards. Even if the fit is good and you find 5 across, it's still 2 losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 5♥ here. The hand has 7 losers. The 1NT has an expectancy of 4 cover cards. Even if the fit is good and you find 5 across, it's still 2 losers.If you would bid 5H here, why did partner bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 5♥ here. The hand has 7 losers. The 1NT has an expectancy of 4 cover cards. Even if the fit is good and you find 5 across, it's still 2 losers. Jesus!...one of them bidding 4♣... other one raising... pd is NOT doubling...oh ***** in fact he just cued!...you have a VOID in their suit....and instead of worrying about grand slam you are sticking to your formula of losers? Oh dear..and how many losers would a good old 12-14 weak NT cover in your formula? AxAxxxAQTxxxx You may change it to look bad of course but then again nobody asking you to bid grand, you are still not dead in slam if pd tables a total junk for his bid (which I doubt he would bid the way he did with this but..) QxxAQJxAQxxxx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 I think we have to bid slam here. It rates to be on nothing worse than a 2-1 trump break and a hook....and on many layouts it will be effectively cold. Give opener the example hand I suggested: AJx Axxx AKxx xx, and we rate to be able to eliminate the clubs, while drawing trump, and then, depending on how the cards have fallen so far, play top diamonds, maybe dropping the Q and, if not, if diamonds are 3-3, the holder of the Q is endplayed (assuming trump 2-1/1-2). And if all else fails we will have a damn good count in spades. IOW, I'd want to be there, and with our club void it is possible that partner is 2=4=4=3, with xxx in clubs, and now the contract has to be close to laydown. I can respect anyone who thinks this is a very close choice and elects 5♥, but to anyone who thinks it is a clear 5♥, all I can say is that I don't think you understand bidding very well. What hand type do you think partner has to bid 5♦???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 If you would bid 5H here, why did partner bother? Maybe he wanted to hint a lead. Maybe he actually has diamonds. Maybe he likes frivolous bids, who knows? You see, that's the problem of taking risks in undiscussed auctions. Regardless of what you may think the bid "should" show, it is quite possible partner is using it for other purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strings11 Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Can partner be "Answering" Keycards? The suit is known, seems to me that answering keycards lets You figure out what it is that needs to be done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Can partner be "Answering" Keycards? The suit is known, seems to me that answering keycards lets You figure out what it is that needs to be done... There ya go. You nailed it imo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm bidding 5♦ to say to partner that he has truly hit a home run.It's probably a good general principle that when there is only one slam (or game) try available, then that call is just a general slam (or game) try. Espcially when lead-directing is not a big priority. I was wondering if pass is forcing here. If it is, 5♦ could say something about diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 hmmm... did you remember to take your medication? My prescribed medications are -Black coffee in the a.m-***** loads of beer p.m In between, I work. And I never ever forget to take them.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif How about you sweetheart? Where did you forget your common sense and logic when you decided to reply the way you did? I am not against 5♥ as much as the reason why you chose it. Where is this resistance coming from? Another poster just wrote that 5♦ over 5♣ can be used as showing keycards...as if there is enough space between 5♣ and 5♥ to show them even if we agreed to that in a moment of insanity. I mean why there is such a huge attraction to the shortcuts such as trying to apply loser count in a situation where there are so many hints screaming that loser count-hcp count-whatever count will be flawed by far for obvious reasons. Why is it so hard to read what Mike wrote in this topic (and in general) and try to digest it and improve and why is it so attractive to rely on magical formulas-shortcuts? 1-About lead directing: In order to lead against a contract, our side needs to be in DEFENSE! What is our genius pd planning, if god forbid they decide NOT to declare? After all his 5♦ took out the responsibility of taking 11 tricks in clubs from the shoulders of opponents! I am just saying...2-About 5♦ being natural: He opened NT, and at 5 level he decided that we should play in diamonds, even though more or less we know his a-Strengthb-Shape when he does not know a ***** about ours! We may have a 3622 13 hcp or we may have a 4711 5 hcp in this auction with various hands types in shape and strength. What does this tell you? Your name need not to be Meckwell in order to figure out that all of this comes down to 1 and only 1 thing = I have a ♥ fit! (unless you really want to spare this bid for "I opened NT with a 6 card solid suit") The argument of whether ♥ fit+lead dia if they bid on or ♥fit+slam desire is easy. Hands which want to give these 2 different messages will be very similar in most of the cases. We are talking about hands that wants to compete to 5 level and does not want to defend 5♣. How can you go wrong by approaching high level competitive auctions and decisions by being flexible-logical-thoughtful instead of trying to apply a formula? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelst Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 [hv=pc=n&w=skt74hkt9754dj74c&e=sa5haq62daq653c75]266|100[/hv] 12 easy tricks in 6♥. West didn't understand 5♦. Thanks for your reactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rat Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 To me it shows fit along with length and values in diamonds. It's not a slam try in the true sense, it's an attempt to help partner get the high-level decision right when they bid on. It seems important to realise that this is not just abut deciding what we can make, opps can make a large number of tricks in clubs as well. I'm not sure why everyone is assuming that opener has 4 hearts on this auction. When partner has shown 6, a 10-card fit is beyond requirements. I'd expect something like this for the 5♦ bid: [hv=pc=n&e=s432haq2dakqt4c43]133|100[/hv] 11 tricks and no real likelihood for 12 (A♠ almost certainly offside) although partner has room for the ♠Q for a possible 12 tricks [*] - but then ♠A and another for a ruff is not so unlikely on this auction. Partner has warned you that his values are in the red suits, he has a source of tricks in ♦ to the extent that our combined defensive tricks are not that great since out ODR is high with a double fit in the reds, we may need to bid 6♥ as a sac if we have ♠AQ(J) sitting over the king and 8 clubs on our right, 3 on our left. Now the decision over 6♣ is whether we can cash 2 red-suit tricks fast - it's probably too risky, so we may take the small minus in 6♥ along with the chance that it may make depending who has the ♠Q. But we don't realise the danger unless partner shows us the lie of the land with his 5♦. [*} Assuming 1NT is 15-17, the OP doesn't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 anyone who thinks that opener is preparing to direct a red v white save against 6♣, being bid to make (!) is seriously deluded or plays in games far removed from any game in which I have played. RHO is a passed hand. LHO has made a pre-empt at favourable. They have pushed us to the 5-level. It is incredibly unlikely that they can make 12 tricks...if we have this xxx AQx AKQxx xx hand, partner has a spade card (or 2), and in any event, in what universe do we have no red tricks on defence? Get real. It is very easy to see that we may have a slam when opener fits hearts, and has a max with nothing in clubs. That hand type is far more relevant than any fantasy hand on which, having opened a strong 1N, we need to find a red v white 6 level save against pre-empting opps. Since that is (I think) obvious, then we should use the 5♦ call for the needed purpose of a slam try and not the save suggesting near-impossible scenario. This thread is interesting for the bizarre nature of the posts. We have a self-proclaimed expert applying loser count and cover cards (and insulting a good player who points out how silly that is), another poster thinking that opener is showing a keycard response, when there is no room to do so even if one accepted that opener would dream this up and responder would be on the same wavelength, and another suggesting that we should use this bid to suggest a save. Bridge isn't that complicated, folks. We listen to the auction. We imagine fairly common hands that partner may hold. If we can picture slam, and of course we can when we have a max with hearts and nothing in clubs, we do something to tell him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rat Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 It is incredibly unlikely that they can make 12 tricks...if we have this xxx AQx AKQxx xx hand, partner has a spade card (or 2), and in any event, in what universe do we have no red tricks on defence?The tone of your response is such that I would normally treat it as it deserves - not worth replying to. Except to point out the arithmetically-challenged aspect - when partner has 15hcp in the hand above, how in the name of all that's holy do you make that add up to "partner will have a spade card or two"???He may have the ♠Q or ♠J, if max (assuming 15-17 NT). Or he may have a min and have nothing in spades, as I stated clearly enough for most. Nobody said that we have NO red tricks in defence - the point is that we may have only 1 and we need 2. Even if we get 2, we still may get a bad score if we can make a higher contract... Nobody ever said that 'opener is preparing for a sacrifice', what was said s that opener is simply providing the information for a high-level decision. High cards don't make this 'our hand', in these high level decisions it's all about having the info to make the right decisions. I dare say you're 'unlucky' a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 The tone of your response is such that I would normally treat it as it deserves - not worth replying to. Except to point out the arithmetically-challenged aspect - when partner has 15hcp in the hand above, how in the name of all that's holy do you make that add up to "partner will have a spade card or two"???He may have the ♠Q or ♠J, if max (assuming 15-17 NT). Or he may have a min and have nothing in spades, as I stated clearly enough for most. Nobody said that we have NO red tricks in defence - the point is that we may have only 1 and we need 2. Even if we get 2, we still may get a bad score if we can make a higher contract... Nobody ever said that 'opener is preparing for a sacrifice', what was said s that opener is simply providing the information for a high-level decision. High cards don't make this 'our hand', in these high level decisions it's all about having the info to make the right decisions. I dare say you're 'unlucky' a lot. Partner is red v white, and I think it fair to say that the odds are that partner has little in clubs. If we hold 15 hcp in the reds, then the odds seem to suggest that our vulnerable partner, even tho acting under pressure, has some cards. Yes, it is possible that he has chosen to act on KJxxxxx(x) of hearts and out, but the odds suggest that he probably has more stuff than that. If so, then the odds are overwhelming that that stuff is in spades. I don't understand why you can't see that. What, pray tell, would you have wanted him to bid with AQxx Kxxxxx xx x?? As for my taking your posts as suggesting we are paving the way for a 6-level decision over their slam bid, I repeat, probably to no useful purpose as far as persuading you, that it is extraordinarily unlikely that the opps, having pushed us to the 5-level, are about to save. If they do, then so what? Are you suggesting that with your example hand of xxx AQx AKQxx xx, you want partner, a passed hand, to bid 6♥? Why? It cannot be simply because we only collect 300 or so against their contract.....because -100 or -200 our way isn't, actually, better than collecting 300. As for my being 'unlucky'.....let's not get into personal attacks. I criticized your reasoning, your post. I did take a shot at whereagles, and shouldn't have, but at least I can say he started it :P Take all the shots you like at my reasoning, altho I don't see where you have actually addressed my arguments. Your post simply defends your earlier statements rather than what I have positively asserted. And, while I have no idea who you are in real life, the odds are that I have been somewhat 'luckier' than you in terms of bridge accomplishments, so maybe (unless you are in the world's top 100-200 players) pick your targets a little more carefully. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip10 Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 [hv=d=w&v=e&b=16&a=pp1n4c4h5c5d]133|100[/hv] What is 5♦? TU Agrees that hearts are trumps and showing ace of dia. So, obvious slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 I think Mikeh is trying to say that "high-level competition" in the title maybe should mean more than the 5-level...that the posters and West should rise to the presumed high level of East and of this particular forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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