Suction MI & UI

[jeffford76]

[hv=pc=n&s=s93hj4d75ckqt8653&w=saqj842hdkqj42ca7&n=s7haqt987632d8cj2&e=skt65hk5dat963c94&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=2c4ddpp4hpp4sp6npp7hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

North/South have agreed to play Suction [bidding diamonds shows hearts or blacks], and North thinks this means that all bids are Suction, and South thinks that only non-jump bids are Suction. 4♦ is not alerted, although the intention is explained before the opening lead, and West does not change their final pass.

 

In case it's not clear, 7♦ makes, but 7♠ does not unless ♥A is led on the go. 7♥ is a paying sacrifice over small slam. West claims he would have bid 4♠ over partner's initial double with correct information, but East/West make no other statement about how they think the auction would go.

 

Do you adjust, and if so to what? ACBL, so no weighted scores, although feel free to say what you would use for weights if that was an option.

[trevahound]

You're better at this than me, so here goes:

 

North has the UI that S thought 4♦ showed diamonds. But when 4♦x rolled around, pass is clearly not a LA. I don't see how North's UI could suggest 7♥ later.

 

South has UI that N didn't have diamonds, but he has the AI of the auction saying roughly the same thing. And, as S didn't act, and can't correct 7♥ to 8♦ even if opps want the director to make him, he's off the hook. I see no UI problems with this auction.

 

E and W might have acted differently over 4♦ (MI) given the chance, but any action they took still allows N to later bid 7♥. Since North's 7♥ call was sufficient, in turn, and not based on any UI, I see no reason to adjust it. If E/W want to argue that an earlier call by them would have talked N out of 7♥, they'll need impressive reasoning. I don't see it. If W would rather go down in 7♠, I'd allow him that choice.

 

I don't see what adjustment E/W could even be asking for. Unless there's an adjustment that bars North from unilaterally taking out insurance, E/W are going to be under average this board.

 

Brian

[Mbodell]

I agree that it seems like the results will stand on this board. There was MI/UI in that 4♦ should have been alerted (I'm assuming MI instead of misbid, like is usual). But if we accept the W would bid 4♠ I think E could make a move and arriving at 6♠ seems reasonable. But given that N was willing to self sac in 7♥ over 6nt, I'd imagine the same would be true over 6♠. I could maybe see an argument for giving N 7♠ since some E/W might get to 7♠ and some N might try cashing the A, but that seems over the top here (but likely would be part of a weighted score).

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s93hj4d75ckqt8653&w=saqj842hdkqj42ca7&n=s7haqt987632d8cj2&e=skt65hk5dat963c94&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=2c4ddpp4hpp4sp6npp7hdppp]399|300|

North/South have agreed to play Suction [bidding diamonds shows hearts or blacks], and North thinks this means that all bids are Suction, and South thinks that only non-jump bids are Suction. 4♦ is not alerted, although the intention is explained before the opening lead, and West does not change their final pass. In case it's not clear, 7♦ makes, but 7♠ does not unless ♥A is led on the go. 7♥ is a paying sacrifice over small slam. West claims he would have bid 4♠ over partner's initial double with correct information, but East/West make no other statement about how they think the auction would go. Do you adjust, and if so to what? ACBL, so no weighted scores, although feel free to say what you would use for weights if that was an option. [/hv]

Assuming that Suction is alertable, even at the four-level, on the first round of bidding, there is an argument for adjustment: South neither alerted 4♦ nor raised it. Thus North has UI that South is short in ♦. Hence, opponents have a massive undiscovered fit and the suit is breaking well for them. This makes 7♥ more attractive. Pass seems to be an LA. The sacrifice damaged East-West.

[blackshoe]

South has UI that N didn't have diamonds,

What is the source of this UI?

[sfi]

Assuming that Suction is alertable, even at the four-level, on the first round of bidding, there is an argument for adjustment: South neither alerted 4♦ nor raised it. Thus North has UI that South is short in ♦. Hence, opponents have a massive undiscovered fit. This makes 7♥ more attractive. Pass seems to be an LA. The sacrifice damaged East-West.

 

North also has the AI of a 9 card suit, is at favourable vulnerability, and the opponents have just jumped to an almost certainly making slam against which this is a guaranteed good save. I'm struggling to see pass as a LA.

[gnasher]

North also has the AI of a 9 card suit, is at favourable vulnerability, and the opponents have just jumped to an almost certainly making slam against which this is a guaranteed good save. I'm struggling to see pass as a LA.

Why is the slam "almost certainly making"? If you go for 1400 opposite J10xx x QJ10x xxxx, you've thrown away at least 16 IMPs, or probably about 80% of a board at matchpoints.

[sfi]

That would indeed be an unlucky hand, but even that will make when one of the opponents holds a 5 card club suit.

[ahydra]

Assuming that Suction is alertable, even at the four-level, on the first round of bidding, there is an argument for adjustment: South neither alerted 4♦ nor raised it. Thus North has UI that South is short in ♦.

 

Does this follow? Would South really raise with say Jxx xxx xxxx xxx?

 

ahydra

[barmar]

Assuming that Suction is alertable, even at the four-level, on the first round of bidding, there is an argument for adjustment: South neither alerted 4♦ nor raised it. Thus North has UI that South is short in ♦. Hence, opponents have a massive undiscovered fit and the suit is breaking well for them. This makes 7♥ more attractive. Pass seems to be an LA. The sacrifice damaged East-West.

If East's double is penalty (as it seems to be from East's actual holding), why would South raise? If he has a fit, wouldn't he be happy to play 4♦X? He can always raise later if West pulls the double.

[nige1]

Hence, opponents have a massive undiscovered fit and the suit is breaking well for them.

North also has the AI of a 9 card suit, is at favourable vulnerability, and the opponents have just jumped to an almost certainly making slam against which this is a guaranteed good save. I'm struggling to see pass as a LA.

A poll might help.

Does this follow? Would South really raise with say Jxx xxx xxxx xxx?

He might; and he would raise with three or four ♦ to an honour.

If East's double is penalty (as it seems to be from East's actual holding), why would South raise? If he has a fit, wouldn't he be happy to play 4♦X? He can always raise later if West pulls the double.

Assuming a fair standard of play, the double is more likely to be "cards".

[trevahound]

What is the source of this UI?

 

North's 4♥ rebid. If N had primarily diamonds, why would he not pass in 4♦x? Oh, I see your point, North's calls are all authorized to South, assuming no tempo/body language, etc...

 

Thanks.

 

Brian Zaugg

[blackshoe]

The auction is AI, yes. B-)