Double: take-out or penalty

[Zelandakh]

According to the Robson-Segal rules this double shows a raise to 3♠ that also suggests a sacrifice in 4♠ (see page 124 and then again page 221). Without this specific agreement it is penalties.

[Lorne50]

Both sides vulnerable, board 4, dealer West. Scoring is match-points.

 

I am not showing my hand at this point. It's obvious what I want double to be if you look at my hand.

 

The auction goes:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1cpp2s3c]133|100[/hv]

 

Is "double" by South take-out or penalty.

 

(I cannot reveal the actual hand until at least 16th July and possibly even then I should not as someone might still play it afterwards).

Penalty. Partner should have a good weak 2 in spades but did not open because he has 4 hearts. You have a club stack and short spades.

[johnu]

According to the Robson-Segal rules this double shows a raise to 3♠ that also suggests a sacrifice in 4♠ (see page 124 and then again page 221). Without this specific agreement it is penalties.

 

Just for drill for those who don't have the book handy, what are the sample hands associated with the rules?

[johnu]

The only partner I play with that would take it as take-out has the initials GIB. For him/her/it everything is take out irrespective of previous bidding.

 

GIB may describe many doubles as takeout but too often passes as if they were penalty :wacko: On the other hand, GIB frequently takes out doubles that are for penalties when pass is indicated, so I guess everything balances out okay. :P

[EricK]

GIB may describe many doubles as takeout but too often passes as if they were penalty :wacko: On the other hand, GIB frequently takes out doubles that are for penalties when pass is indicated, so I guess everything balances out okay. :P

And yet they say it is hard to get a computer to play in a human-like manner...

[mota51]

This has to be penalty double with assured shortage in sapdes and preventing p from bidding 3!s - just in case she may decide to do so (since she ventured 2!s after a pass)

[MrsD12345]

Its my first post, and have a horrid feelng that I am now totally unsure, yes its penalty / no its not [the correct bid is PASS] How much information are we giving away, what are we going to do next......... when in doubt, and all else fails, I PASS

[nige1]

[hv=d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1cpp2s3c]133|100| Both sides vulnerable, board 4, dealer West. Scoring is match-points. I am not showing my hand at this point. It's obvious what I want double to be if you look at my hand. Is "double" by South take-out or penalty. (I cannot reveal the actual hand until at least 16th July and possibly even then I should not as someone might still play it afterwards). [/hv]

Perhaps 2♠ shows a near opening bid with a poor long suit e.g.

♠ x x x x x x x ♥ A Q x x ♦ K x ♣ -

Anyway, agree with everybody: double is penalty.

[gordontd]

According to the Robson-Segal rules this double shows a raise to 3♠ that also suggests a sacrifice in 4♠ (see page 124 and then again page 221). Without this specific agreement it is penalties.

I can see nothing on page 124 that looks lie this situation, and the one on page 221 (described as takeout) doesn't really seem the same to me either. Since there are those who think the explanation for the given auction is that partner has a side four-card heart suit, there doesn't seem to be much utility in a takeout double here. I could however have a trump stack over the club bidder.

[kelk_r]

Has to be a penalty. N hand should be wk. South had to pass 1 C with strength of almost 1NT or a bit more with few C honours.

[ayebee]

GIB may describe many doubles as takeout but too often passes as if they were penalty :wacko: On the other hand, GIB frequently takes out doubles that are for penalties when pass is indicated, so I guess everything balances out okay. :P

 

Conclusion: The main problem with playing with our good friend GIB is that it's impossible to beat him around the head (literally or figuratively) during the post mortem

[EarlPurple]

Well the hand itself is not GIB but Argine, the system designed by Jerome Rombaut and used on funbridge. The hand came from the last Elite serie (yes I'm an Elite there..) so someone might play it if they try "challenge Elite players" but such is unranked anyway.

 

I have no idea how my system differs to others but I'm the only one of the 20 who played it whose partner did not open the bidding 1♠. Partner has 11 points and 6 spades to the AQ10 and at every other table East overcalled 2♣ over 1♠. E/W make 6 tricks in clubs so defending here is not going to be good. I scored well on this board playing in 3NT (rather than 4♠)

[Cyberyeti]

Well the hand itself is not GIB but Argine, the system designed by Jerome Rombaut and used on funbridge. The hand came from the last Elite serie (yes I'm an Elite there..) so someone might play it if they try "challenge Elite players" but such is unranked anyway.

 

I have no idea how my system differs to others but I'm the only one of the 20 who played it whose partner did not open the bidding 1♠. Partner has 11 points and 6 spades to the AQ10 and at every other table East overcalled 2♣ over 1♠. E/W make 6 tricks in clubs so defending here is not going to be good. I scored well on this board playing in 3NT (rather than 4♠)

 

Err if EW make 6 tricks in clubs then you're taking 800 at game all so defending is fine.

[Zelandakh]

Just for drill for those who don't have the book handy, what are the sample hands associated with the rules?

Sorry, I have been away on holiday without internet for a few days. The example from the book (albeit in a slightly different auction) is ♠K742 ♥653 ♦KQ42 ♣J7.

 

 

I can see nothing on page 124 that looks lie this situation, and the one on page 221 (described as takeout) doesn't really seem the same to me either. Since there are those who think the explanation for the given auction is that partner has a side four-card heart suit, there doesn't seem to be much utility in a takeout double here. I could however have a trump stack over the club bidder.

The discussion starts at the bottom of page 123. They make the point that partner might well have a 5 card suit. I agree that the example auctions are different but I see nothing in the OP auction that would disqualify it from the rules or logic laid out. The real question is whether fourth hand is still wide-ranging or is now disciplined. The focus of R-S is on a wide-ranging style and this is essentially the reason they suggest this agreement for 2M WJOs. It would certainly not be unreasonable to say that this is not a position for a wide-ranging overcall and that the agreement is therefore off - but this is not discussed.

[biggerclub]

Both sides vulnerable, board 4, dealer West. Scoring is match-points.

 

I am not showing my hand at this point. It's obvious what I want double to be if you look at my hand.

 

The auction goes:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1cpp2s3c]133|100[/hv]

 

Is "double" by South take-out or penalty.

 

(I cannot reveal the actual hand until at least 16th July and possibly even then I should not as someone might still play it afterwards).

 

It must be penalty. Standard. If you don't TO over 1♣, your x over any subsequent # of ♣ says, "I have a stack."

[biggerclub]

I'm talking something like

 

x

KQxx

AQJx

xxxx

 

By the way, I consider 2♠ a positive action.

 

People don't overcall 4 card suits here? Ever?

[biggerclub]

GIB may describe many doubles as takeout but too often passes as if they were penalty :wacko: On the other hand, GIB frequently takes out doubles that are for penalties when pass is indicated, so I guess everything balances out okay. :P

 

I have given up on even hoping that GIB will interpret x's properly. If I can beat a contract 2 tricks and I know it, I have to pass or end up playing in an unmakeable contract 1 level higher.

[whereagles]

People don't overcall 4 card suits here? Ever?

 

Some people do. But most see it as something heretic :)

[chasetb]

Earl, you have said in two posts that +800 isn't a good score compared to game, which is likely +600/620 unless you are playing some crazy scoring method?

 

I generally agree with you that there aren't hands between a Weak 2 and opening 1M, EXCEPT when it come to 2nd hand pre-empts (especially VUL). Suit quality is a big factor, because you can easily end up in a 6-1 or 6-0 (GASP!) when you had a better fit.

 

According to the Robson-Segal rules this double shows a raise to 3♠ that also suggests a sacrifice in 4♠ (see page 124 and then again page 221). Without this specific agreement it is penalties.

Zel, I disagree with you because I bet Robson/Segal would say that this is penalty 100% of the time. Look at page 117 when talking about pre-empts. For those that don't want to download/read Partnership Bidding at Bridge : c) Second-in-hand: 1-3. (my note to the forum posters - on an aggression scale of 1-10) This is not the time to pressure-bid, as we saw in the section "The right time to strike". Take the vulnerability into account a little, but generally keep your pre-empts within a fairly narrow range. Partner will often have a good hand and will need to know what you've got - either in order to bid constructively; or to double the opponents, particularly if they protect ...

 

So I look at the auction as they opened, partner shows his or her hand with a flawed but now worthy Weak 2, and then opener PROTECTS on his or her own. Our X says that we are cracking the whip, no doubt in my mind.

[Zelandakh]

Zel, I disagree with you because I bet Robson/Segal would say that this is penalty 100% of the time. Look at page 117 when talking about pre-empts.

But that section deals with opening preempts and partner did not open a second seat preempt. They made a 2M WJO, which is covered in the sections I highlighted earlier. Whether it should be considered a "proper" WJO in fourth seat is another question, as per the previous post, but that is not discussed as far as I can see. They do discuss the difference from a 2M opening, where double is always penalty for an unpassed hand or after a fourth seat opening. This double (showing support) is specifically for WJOs of 2M so pointing at sections that deal with different calls is unlikely to be relevant.

[MrAce]

Don't get me wrong, I really like the work Robson-Segal made with this book. But boy...I really don't care what they say, this is penalty double in the pdships I am involved with.

 

To me preempt/wjo does not make sense when opponents are about to play 1 club if we pass. It is also dangerous to balance with weak hands when pd passed 1 Cl. Initial pass otoh overrides anything stronger. So this 2 sp must be a picture bid hand that pd could not open due to restrictions previous round. Most likely 6-4 majors and they strictly deny side 4 card M when they open weak 2 M.

 

Edit: I see Rik already mentioned 6-4 MM