Double: take-out or penalty

[EarlPurple]

Both sides vulnerable, board 4, dealer West. Scoring is match-points.

 

I am not showing my hand at this point. It's obvious what I want double to be if you look at my hand.

 

The auction goes:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1cpp2s3c]133|100[/hv]

 

Is "double" by South take-out or penalty.

 

(I cannot reveal the actual hand until at least 16th July and possibly even then I should not as someone might still play it afterwards).

[gordontd]

It's penalty. What puzzles me is your partner's 2♠ bid - what can he have that didn't want to open 1♠ yet now wants to bid 2♠?

[helene_t]

Penalty. It's probably better played as t/o opposite a simple overcall (dunno what standard is) but partner's jump transfers captaincy to you.

[Cyberyeti]

This auction doesn't exist for us (we open a weak 2 on pretty much any hand with 6 spades in second seat, and those we don't are 1♠ protections), so I'm guessing. What is 2♠ by a passed hand ? I presume it's a weak 2 that's a point shy or otherwise unsuitable, maybe 7 small or 4 hearts if you don't open these, but it's in essence a preempt. Most people play that X by the partner of a preempter is for penalties, and this seems particularly likely here.

 

I can see a potential disagreement if you don't open 6-4 majors 2♠ and that hand feels obliged to bid 3♥, but partner didn't overcall, that also depends on style, if I had a decent opening hand 1435 or similar with 4 reasonable hearts I'd probably overcall but many wouldn't.

[helene_t]

Yeah, hard to construct a hand for partner. Maybe JTxxxxx-xx-KQJx-void

[whereagles]

Take out.

 

See Robson/Segal p.225: "a delayed double is for penalties of RHO’s first suit (take-out of his second suit, if relevant), except when RHO was the opening bidder and partner has taken positive action on the first round."

[Cyberyeti]

Take out.

 

See Robson/Segal p.225: "a delayed double is for penalties of RHO’s first suit (take-out of his second suit, if relevant), except when RHO was the opening bidder and partner has taken positive action on the first round."

 

Depends what you consider positive action to be. I think Robson was not considering the situation where partner was a passed hand and thus his action doesn't show any particular values, in fact he probably denies very much at all. He's talking about 1♦-P-P-1♠-2♦-X where partner can still have a hand.

[steve2005]

How can double be takeout?

 

Both partners are a passed hand and partner couldn't find a bid over 1♣ and now want you to pick a new suit at the 3-level vul. Any hand good enough to do this is good enough to come in over 1♣ with the worst case scenario being over calling 1♥ on a 4-card suit or overcalling 1N with off-shape. In both of these cases partner will have ♣ so even if your strict on what you overcall you still have a PEN double.

 

If partner can't bid over 1♣ and doubles 3♣ they have ♣ and is PEN.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[whereagles]

I'm talking something like

 

x

KQxx

AQJx

xxxx

 

By the way, I consider 2♠ a positive action.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm talking something like

 

x

KQxx

AQJx

xxxx

 

By the way, I consider 2♠ a positive action.

 

I'd be overcalling 1red on that, can't make my mind up which one, and I'd pass 3♣ if I passed first time, the hand is a misfit and partner probably only has 4 or 5 points.

[johnu]

Let's consider first principles.

 

You didn't have a suit or suits that you thought warranted a bid over 1♣. Partner has said they have primarily a one suited hand in spades. If double is supposed to be takeout, exactly what kind of fit are you expecting to find at the 3 level and why would you even be looking opposite a preemptive jump in spades?

 

Suppose you had a penalty double type of hand of 1♣. Wouldn't you want to make a penalty double of 3♣?

[Trinidad]

We actually do have an agreement about jump overcalls by a passed hand. They show a good weak two with a 4 card (possibly 5) major on the side.

 

We think a 4 card major on the side is a good reason to pass initially, but not a reason to pass on the next round. All other good reasons to pass initially when holding a six card major are also good reasons to pass later (or at least a good reason not to jump to the two level).

 

Obviously we didn't use to have this agreement, but when my partner made such a passed hand WJO for the first time, I was confident enough to jump straight to game in the other major. We both agreed that not bidding a weak two, but backing in with a WJO -for our partnership- is extremely likely based on a four card major on the side. So we just decided to make that agreement explicit.

 

When you have such an agreement, and partner's distribution in the majors is well defined I would think that a double now should be penalty. After all, if you would have had a decent hand that wanted to suggest diamonds, you wouldn't have passed 1♣.

 

Rik

[EarlPurple]

Thank you for all the responses.

 

I do not think partner made the right bid to pass initially on the hand as I don't believe there is anything between an opening bid and a weak 2, therefore if he has AQxxxx in spades he either has enough for an opening bid of 1, or not quite enough in which case he should open 2♠.

 

I am interested to know what you think the system should be because where I played this hand I was told what Dbl would mean should I bid it. The system said it was take-out and I wanted it to be penalty due to the fact I had KJ10x in clubs. I did also have Jxx in spades though, and 12 points.

 

If double is take-out my choices seem to be aiming for 4♠ or even 3NT (especially being MP but even at IMPs there is a risk of a club ruff playing in spades).

 

Nobody else was able to double either (due to the nature of where this was played) but 3♣ or 3♥ if they run both go 800 down which doesn't compensate for any game we can make and we can't make slam. Of course, what works best on this hand isn't necessarily what works best most of the time.

 

(As the hand may still be played by some people and they might read this I will not show the hands nor say whether 3NT or 4♠ is the winning contract).

[EarlPurple]

I'm talking something like

 

x

KQxx

AQJx

xxxx

 

By the way, I consider 2♠ a positive action.

 

With that hand I'd pass 3♣ quickly and be glad we're defending and not having to play 2♠ doubled at this vulnerability. Not enough to know I can beat 3♣ and certainly not wanting to compete any further on what looks like a misfit.

[EricK]

Take out.

 

See Robson/Segal p.225: "a delayed double is for penalties of RHO’s first suit (take-out of his second suit, if relevant), except when RHO was the opening bidder and partner has taken positive action on the first round."

Partner has taken positive action on the second round, hasn't he?

[johnu]

Take out.

 

See Robson/Segal p.225: "a delayed double is for penalties of RHO’s first suit (take-out of his second suit, if relevant), except when RHO was the opening bidder and partner has taken positive action on the first round."

 

Ummm, partner passed the first round.

[johnu]

I'm talking something like

 

x

KQxx

AQJx

xxxx

 

By the way, I consider 2♠ a positive action.

 

Preemptive bids are positive actions? Why didn't Robson/Segal just say when partner has bid? What would constitute a bid that isn't a positive action???

 

Do you really want to play in a 4-3 (or worse) red suit at the 3 level or 3 spades with a 6-1 fit?

[mikestar13]

In the modern game, you really can't swing the axe below game. The best you can do is make a takeout or card showing double and hope partner can leave it in. I don't totally love this style (I played rubber bridge for cash in the 70's, penalty doubles made me a lot of money) but it's the way it is.

[mikestar13]

deleted accidental double post

[johnu]

In the modern game, you really can't swing the axe below game. The best you can do is make a takeout or card showing double and hope partner can leave it in. I don't totally love this style (I played rubber bridge for cash in the 70's, penalty doubles made me a lot of money) but it's the way it is.

 

Of course you can, just double when this auction comes up :rolleyes:

[helene_t]

Preemptive bids are positive actions?

A balancing jump overcall is normally played as intermediate. In standard bidding it probably doesn't exist by a passed hand. But whatever it means, it must be specific enough to transfer captaincy to partner and thus make doubles be penalty. I think R/S would agree with that unless they say specifically that they play t/o doubles opposite jump overcalls.

[mikestar13]

Of course you can, just double when this auction comes up :rolleyes:

 

I really like the way you think on this issue :rolleyes:!

[whereagles]

Well, I suppose it all boils down to whether pass+2♠ rates as positive or negative :)

[bluechip10]

Both sides vulnerable, board 4, dealer West. Scoring is match-points.

 

I am not showing my hand at this point. It's obvious what I want double to be if you look at my hand.

 

The auction goes:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1cpp2s3c]133|100[/hv]

 

Is "double" by South take-out or penalty.

 

(I cannot reveal the actual hand until at least 16th July and possibly even then I should not as someone might still play it afterwards).

 

Penalty.

[ayebee]

Penalties. It can hardly be for take out after the initial pass of 1c (what is partner supposed to respond other than rebidding his spades?)

 

It could I suppose be a negative double of sorts showing values and no fit in spades, but that just passes reponsibility back to partner.

 

As far as I can see he has either 0-4 points and 7 spades and didnt fancy a 3 level vulnerable pre-empt or 6 spades and 4 hearts and has agreed not to open weak 2s on that holding. On that basis partner could bid 3H with 4 card support and hope that partner corrects to 3S with 7 spades.

 

The only partner I play with that would take it as take-out has the initials GIB. For him/her/it everything is take out irrespective of previous bidding.