Stayman = Bad

[chasetb]

I bid aggressively, I admit, but unless the suit is AKQJ8, AKQJ9, AKQJT, or AKQT9, why the heck is it not passing 3NT???

[hv=sn=chasetb&s=S9742H9DQ9CAQ9764&wn=Robot&w=SQJ53HJ6DAK863C82&nn=Robot&n=SA86HAKQT2D75CKT5&en=Robot&e=SKTH87543DJT42CJ3&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=P1N%28notrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20!C%3B%202-5%20!D%3B%202-5%20!H%3B%202-5%20!S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%29P2C%28Stayman%20--%29P2H%282-5%20!C%3B%202-5%20!D%3B%204-5%20!H%3B%202-4%20!S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%29P3N%283-%20!H%3B%204%20!S%3B%2010-15%20HCP%29P4H%282-5%20!C%3B%202-5%20!D%3B%205-%20!H%3B%202-4%20!S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%20rebiddable%20!H%3B%2018-%20total%20points%3B%20two%20stops%20in%20!H%29P4S%283-%20!H%3B%204-%20!S%3B%2010-15%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20!S%29PPP&p=DKD5D2D9DAD7D4DQD8S6DJC4SASTS2S3S8SKS4S5DTS7D6H2H9H6HQH7HKH8C6HJHAH4C7SQSJC5H5S9D3HTC3C9C8CKCJCQCTH3CAC2]400|300[/hv]

[johnu]

Same reason you didn't pass 4♥?

[chasetb]

Last time I checked John, a 4-3 fit is usually better than a 5-1 fit, and GIB would have still bid the same way with ♠AKQ and ♥Axxxx

[Bbradley62]

Rather than modifying how GIB deals with Stayman, I'd prefer that he simply didn't open 1N with the North hand.

[steve2005]

silly bidding by Gib.

 

5♣ is your spot, don't see how your supposed to find by starting to look at 4 level.

 

 

 

[johnu]

Last time I checked John, a 4-3 fit is usually better than a 5-1 fit, and GIB would have still bid the same way with ♠AKQ and ♥Axxxx

 

Why does GIB N have to have 3 spades? You can see 3 spades after dummy comes down but there doesn't seem to be any reason why there couldn't be only 2. And with a random 3 card spade fit, I don't think 4♠ will play better than a 5-1 heart fit where N has very good hearts. I don't think GIB would bid 4♥ with your example with such a bad suit. Of course, with a likely 4 or 5 tricks in hearts, I don't know why GIB would pull from 3NT with the original hand (or with any hand for that matter since 3NT is a drop dead bid unless N had 4 spades).

[the hog]

Rather than modifying how GIB deals with Stayman, I'd prefer that he simply didn't open 1N with the North hand.

 

Why? 1NT is a fine opening on this balanced hand that is in the NT range. It is an obvious 1NT opening.

[1eyedjack]

North should pass 3N.

 

I applaud the 1N opener, and I would far rather that than have to introduce the baggage associated with including a bal 15-17 hand in a 1M opener.

 

 

[Lovera]

In Stayman system that i play is not possible to open 1 NT with a 5th major; expecially with a suit like this one - compact or half compact - is correct to declare 1 heart for 3 heart is second round. In Stayman system also is not possible declare on two level without having at least 12 points. Then the declaration may be 1H p 1NT (spade not declarable) p 3H p 4C p 5C.

[helene_t]

Same reason you didn't pass 4♥?

That's a bit unfair. 4♠ can't promise more than four spades and opener can bid 4NT with a doubleton spades.

[johnu]

That's a bit unfair. 4♠ can't promise more than four spades and opener can bid 4NT with a doubleton spades.

 

Why pass 4♥? With ♠xxxx, I don't want to play in spades opposite a random 3 card spade suit because it is almost certainly going to be a hopeless contract, and obviously not opposite 2 spades. You know GIB has completely gone off the rails by bidding 4♥ so you have no idea what will happen if you bid 4♠. Maybe GIB will keep on bidding hearts until the cows come home, or jump to slam because it suddenly thinks you are making a slam try. At this point, GIB is bidding without a script and if the hearts are really good, 4♥ may be the best that you can do.

 

Even with a human partner who takes you out of 4♥ it probably is right to pass but for a different reason. The most likely reason I can think of is that a human partner missorted their hand and has 6 or 7 hearts. Either that, or you're playing with a beginner who might pass 4♠ no matter what they have in spades.

[johnu]

In Stayman system that i play is not possible to open 1 NT with a 5th major; expecially with a suit like this one - compact or half compact - is correct to declare 1 heart for 3 heart is second round. In Stayman system also is not possible declare on two level without having at least 12 points. Then the declaration may be 1H p 1NT (spade not declarable) p 3H p 4C p 5C.

 

And your system is correct because???

[Lovera]

And your system is correct because???

What means is correct because ? I play Stayman and those are the indications: such for 1 NT are requested : an hand balanced among 4-3-3-3 or 4-4-3-2 or 5-3-3-2 (5th only diamond or clubs) otherwise i can't open 1 NT force 16-18;i wonder myself because this system is good and very known (but , honestly, not recent [copyright 1955] The complete Stayman systeme of contract bidding i have the third edition with preface of Mario Franco.

[steve2005]

I have a different take on this I think this is too strong for 1N, worth 18 due to semi-solid ♥

 

should open 1♥ and rebid 2N

 

I ran it thru Kaplan evaluation and it agreed

 

K&R (A86 AKQT2 75 KT5) = 18.25

DK = 18-

[Lovera]

I have a different take on this I think this is too strong for 1N, worth 18 due to semi-solid ♥

 

should open 1♥ and rebid 2N

 

I ran it thru Kaplan evaluation and it agreed

 

K&R (A86 AKQT2 75 KT5) = 18.25

DK = 18-

... When opener must bid after a response force is not specified, you can have a hand that can be classified in terms of strength, in one of the following three categories: 1) minimum [13-16 points]; 2) inviting [17-19 points]; 3) forced to run [20 points or more]. The hand "minimal" is that have the requirements for an opening statement or little more. Its radius is of 13-16 points. The hand "inviting" is that will be able to produce the manche if responder has 9-10 points. A hand "forcing to run" is that having 20 or more points and that needs of 6 points to produce a contract for closure (pages 59 and 60 of the book indicated). In Stayman systeme your hand is valuted 19 points (16 Milton Work + 1Goren + 2 points the 5th card in compact suit ) and needs (in that system) of a jump declaration to show force like 1 H - 3 H. Stayman, Kaplan Sheinwold, Roth Stone are system that use 5th major but i don't know if are difference of bidding, i like (and suggest) Stayman and in that system is so. Bye.

[1eyedjack]

... When opener must bid after a response force is not specified, you can have a hand that can be classified in terms of strength, in one of the following three categories: 1) minimum [13 11-16 points];

 

 

FYP

 

And that is the main flaw with not opening 1N in the first place.

 

 

 

 

[Bbradley62]

Jack: Lovera plays 1NT=16-18; surely he doesn't open 11 point hands.

[chasetb]

Personally, I would open the North hand 1♥, because the hand is primed for a suit contract between the Aces and Kings, and the worthless doubleton. I'll overbid with it slightly. However, I don't mind it being opened 1NT, it does get across the HCP (for bean counters only) and the relative shape.

 

To show how obsessed with Hearts GIB is, I was goofing off in Just Play Bridge on BBO and had the hand below. I didn't make the 3♥ bid, but that is what the bid promised.

[hv=pc=n&s=sat75h64dakj97ck2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2h(Jacoby%20transfer)p3h(5%21H%2C%202-3%20%21S%2C%2017%20HCP%2C%2018%20points)]133|200[/hv]

[Lovera]

Jack: Lovera plays 1NT=16-18; surely he doesn't open 11 point hands.

Thanks.

[Lovera]

Personally, I would open the North hand 1♥, because the hand is primed for a suit contract between the Aces and Kings, and the worthless doubleton. I'll overbid with it slightly. However, I don't mind it being opened 1NT, it does get across the HCP (for bean counters only) and the relative shape.

 

To show how obsessed with Hearts GIB is, I was goofing off in Just Play Bridge on BBO and hand the hand below. I didn't make the 3♥ bid, but that is what the bid promised.

[hv=pc=n&s=sat75h64dakj97ck2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2h(Jacoby%20transfer)p3h(5%21H%2C%202-3%20%21S%2C%2017%20HCP%2C%2018%20points)]133|200[/hv]

8) (s) K 7 (h) A J 5 4 (d) K Q 8 6 3 © A 10 Declare 1 diamond and not1 NT - With distribution 5-4-2-2 there are more advantage for play with trump that could be lose opening 1 NT. The declaration of 2 heart (after any normal reponse) is a rever in contigous suits..Not is any proibition to open 1 NT with a hand 5-4-2-2, but in general color declaration will take you to better resultance (pag. 108 Chapter VII Opening declaration of 1 NT). In your hand there is a doubleton and not is covered a suit then is better to open 1 diamond. To declare NT all suit must be covered otherwise opp develope tricks that you can't stop.

[manudude03]

Interesting topic to tread through....

 

I don't think gib should ever be bidding 4H, though I guess the lack of a 3m bid over 2H, and the lack of a 3H bid (4-1-4-4) over 1NT suggest that south does have at least 2 hearts. As for Lovera's posts, the bidding standard these days is a lot better than the old days, it would be better not using a textbook from the 50s.

[ahydra]

Lovera's posts would also be more comprehensible if s/he got his/her terminology right. For example, the word "declare" is used incorrectly a lot in place of "bid", and "forcing to run" was rather confusing, no idea how "game" got confused with "run". (And is there anyone still around who bids 1x-1y-3x on a 5-card suit?)

 

FrancesHinden made a point in another thread a while back about multi-point upgrades of balanced hands like some were advocating on this North hand. The North hand is a truly excellent 16-count but upgrading it to an 18 count is not without risks, after 1H-1S-2NT if partner then jumps to 6NT on a flat 15 you can very easily be off two aces/AK or just simply not have enough tricks. I like 1NT then the obvious pass of 3NT.

 

ahydra

[Lovera]

Classical aspects are like evergreen. Samuel Stayman is the author of 1 NT Stayman very usefull and known convention like 4 NT by Easley Blackwood : both these ones have had in time many variants. The architetture of the system is based on natural bidding with highly compatibility for inserting of convenctions to define better bidding (as you like). Infact, for information about force for slam i have used 4 clubs Avarelli (Walter Avarelli component of the Italian Blue Team) whilest the system uses 4 clubs Gerber and also Asking Bid by Ely Culbertson (in the system cue bids).Already at the time the book was published the author suggest to "whom want use Gerber or Blackwood convention to consider how 5th controll of first round the King of the trump agree". Nowaday we'd use RKCB.

(I apologize if there is any imprecision in the precedent translate, i hope to be clair the concept however; about bidding a suit compact 5th is equivalent to 6th likeA K Q x x x x x ).