Wrong shape

[gnasher]

[hv=pc=n&s=saj43ha8djckq9643&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p3d]133|200[/hv]

 

What would you do

(a) If 4♣ would be natural

(b) If 4♣ would be 5-5 in clubs and a major.

[jallerton]

(a) and (b). Double. If partner bids 3♥, now I bid 4♣. If partner jumps to 4♥, I pass, being ready to apologise at the end of the hand if this is a silly contract.

[Cascade]

3♠ is an option.

 

4♣ is probably better if it shows two suits.

[gszes]

Pass

 

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows

what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here.

Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready

willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

 

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake

up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have

15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an

average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged

hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the

preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

 

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically

these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really

huge negative scores.

 

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2

 

I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster

hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing

clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere

between 4 and 5.

[Finch]

Double followed by 4♣, which should show clubs and four spades not a huge single suited hand which bids some number of clubs (or NT) at once.

4H in a 5-2 fit isn't the end of the world: try xx KQxxx xxx Axx on a diamond lead (yes a carefully selected hand!)

 

Double also gets to 3NT sometimes and I'm not embarrassed by my playing strength.

[whereagles]

pard is a passed hand?

 

pass regardless

[Finch]

I've found the hand now when it was written up and seen what happened at the table where the opening bid was 3D.

Wow.

[jallerton]

Pass

 

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here. Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

 

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have 15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

 

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really huge negative scores.

 

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2

I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere

between 4 and 5.

 

 

Thanks for the advice. In future I'll wait until I have 10 tricks in my own hand before I come in on this auction. The doubled undertricks are so much worse vulnerable, how silly of me to focus on the possibility of a vulnerable game, or even to fantasise that partner might choose a more favourable action such as 4♠, 4♦, 3NT, 3♠ or pass over my double. In my dreams partner might be intelligent enough to work out that (3♦)-dbl-3♥-4♣-4♦ is available as choice of games to cater for me holding 3=3=1=6 or 4=2=1=6. Following your recommendation, it could be a couple of years before I do anything other than pass over a 3♦ opening, but at least my partner won't be deceived into thinking that I hold a monster hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass

 

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows

what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here.

Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready

willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

 

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake

up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have

15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an

average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged

hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the

preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

 

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically

these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really

huge negative scores.

 

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2

 

I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster

hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing

clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere

between 4 and 5.

 

You are a mile off, it's entirely conceivable you will concede 3♦= when you were making a slam (whether you're bidding it or not). K109xx, xxx, xxx, Ax seems to offer decent chances and swap the Q♠ for the 10 it's excellent.

[Fluffy]

I've found the hand now when it was written up and seen what happened at the table where the opening bid was 3D.

Wow.

 

I don't know that exact table where this was the opening, but I recall most of the field missed the 4-4 spade fit. Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

[PhantomSac]

Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

 

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

[PhantomSac]

I have always overcalled 4C with this hand type. I have always felt trepidation of missing spades or 3N, but X has always just seemed too scary. X then 4C is not like a great solution, we are a little bit light (but no it doesn't show a MONSTER, it is still what we would do with an ace more and I think we are like a queen light for what partner will expect. Maybe that is circular though and if we X with this hand type he can expect it but then we have a really wide range for a bid that is at the 4 level already and partner has no invites...). But that might just be irrational fear (and when you are SCARED of Xing with 2 hearts, your natural fall back is overcalling in your long suit). I could definitely be convinced that X is right, it is so foreign to me to X with a doubleton major and a hand that is not that good though.

 

I think partner being a passed hand makes 4C better, he can bid 4M over it suggesting a max pass with a 5 card suit, he can cuebid as a strain probe rather than having us think that is definitely a slam try in clubs, etc. But maybe that's not right also. I have definitely bid 4C and had partner pass with 5 spades and 1 club and felt dumb lol. I really think this hand type just sucks.

[Finch]

It's easier when you aren't playing 4C as natural, because you don't have the temptation.

[Finch]

I don't know that exact table where this was the opening, but I recall most of the field missed the 4-4 spade fit. Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

 

It's fair to say that most of the field would not have had a 3D opening.

[Cascade]

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

 

I can't imagine a 4♠ overcall but I will say again I think 3♠ is reasonable.

[Fluffy]

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

 

yeah, the hand is not strong enough to jump to 6 yet

[PhilKing]

I have always overcalled 4C with this hand type. I have always felt trepidation of missing spades or 3N, but X has always just seemed too scary. X then 4C is not like a great solution, we are a little bit light (but no it doesn't show a MONSTER, it is still what we would do with an ace more and I think we are like a queen light for what partner will expect. Maybe that is circular though and if we X with this hand type he can expect it but then we have a really wide range for a bid that is at the 4 level already and partner has no invites...). But that might just be irrational fear (and when you are SCARED of Xing with 2 hearts, your natural fall back is overcalling in your long suit). I could definitely be convinced that X is right, it is so foreign to me to X with a doubleton major and a hand that is not that good though.

 

Just relax, take a deep breath, and come over to the unequal level conversion club.

 

I've looked at so many of these hands from top-level play recently it's scary. Basically, these sequences should just show sound rather than huge values (there is one exception - removing a major to a major). And as long as we have tops in our suits, we have "blockers" to the raise. It's such a huge winner I considered not posting!

[Finch]

I'm surprised by your exception (removing a major to a major)

 

How to you bid, say,

 

KQxxx

Axx

x

AKJx

 

over a 3D opening?

 

I would double and bid 3S over 3H

[PhilKing]

I'm surprised by your exception (removing a major to a major)

 

How to you bid, say,

 

KQxxx

Axx

x

AKJx

 

over a 3D opening?

 

I would double and bid 3S over 3H

 

As who would not? This one shows extras - the others don't. To give a concrete example of a "sound values":

 

♠KT986

♥AJ43

♦J6

♣A4

 

After 3♣ on the right, Cohen and Schwartz both doubled and passed a 3♦ response. I would continue with 3♠. I am only telling you this because 3♦ went 2 down and 4♠ makes. B-)

[whereagles]

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

 

It's a pun. A guy once overcalled 6♦ over a 3M preempt on a 4D-6C hand and found a 4-4 fit across. Turned out it's the only slam that makes and that is the only way to bid it.

[PhantomSac]

yeah, the hand is not strong enough to jump to 6 yet

 

lol, ok that one went way over my head, well done.

[PhantomSac]

As who would not? This one shows extras - the others don't. To give a concrete example of a "sound values":

 

♠KT986

♥AJ43

♦J6

♣A4

 

After 3♣ on the right, Cohen and Schwartz both doubled and passed a 3♦ response. I would continue with 3♠. I am only telling you this because 3♦ went 2 down and 4♠ makes. B-)

 

ok now you're just being weird :P

[ahydra]

I'm going to watch this topic with interest - not only for the drama, but also for the discussion on this conversion-of-double approach after pre-empts, which to my mind has quite some merit to it.

 

ahydra

[PhantomSac]

I'm going to watch this topic with interest - not only for the drama, but also for the discussion on this conversion-of-double approach after pre-empts, which to my mind has quite some merit to it.

 

ahydra

 

I agree, it's a critical topic and has always been in the modern game. Flexibility is really important at high levels and obviously that is where these things have gone, I suspect we still have not come all the way in testing the lower limit. I will definitely double next time I hold this hand (but sorry Phil I need a few more decades before I double and bid 3S on KT98x AJxx Jx Ax haha). If it's good enough for the TeamEngland it's good enough for me :P

[gszes]

Thanks for the advice. In future I'll wait until I have 10 tricks in my own hand before I come in on this auction. The doubled undertricks are so much worse vulnerable, how silly of me to focus on the possibility of a vulnerable game, or even to fantasise that partner might choose a more favourable action such as 4♠, 4♦, 3NT, 3♠ or pass over my double. In my dreams partner might be intelligent enough to work out that (3♦)-dbl-3♥-4♣-4♦ is available as choice of games to cater for me holding 3=3=1=6 or 4=2=1=6. Following your recommendation, it could be a couple of years before I do anything other than pass over a 3♦ opening, but at least my partner won't be deceived into thinking that I hold a monster hand.

 

I did not know if yours or cyberyeti was a better reply to respond to so I chose yours mainly because I like sarcasm. I totally realize that it is not a requirement of my poor passed partner to have anything less than just short of an opening bid. In fact I gave x a solid 20% (I actually feel it is just under 19% but I gave the benefit of the doubt) chance of success. It is not a failure of imagination just merely prudent at these colors to avoid a probable disaster.

 

If the bidding had gone p p 3d I would have zero problems with taking action here. It is the combination of vulnerability form of scoring a passed partner and a still unlimited lho that makes me feel pass is the strongest candidate for success. Please do not wait until you have ten tricks to bid the world would be a much unhappier place.

 

I almost forgot Your Welcome:)