Are these two the same?

[Hanoi5]

1x-(1y)-Pa-(Pa)

1NT

 

and

 

1x-(Pa)-Pa-(1y)

1NT

[Cyberyeti]

May depend what your 1N opener is. In the first case, partner can still have values for a response, in the second he can't.

 

So 1x-P-P-1y-1N I would expect to be 18-19 or so.

 

1x-1y-p-p-1N playing a strong NT is probably the same, but I can see you doing it with some strong NTs playing weak.

[rhm]

1x-(1y)-Pa-(Pa)

1NT

 

and

 

1x-(Pa)-Pa-(1y)

1NT

 

That depends what your agreements are over : 1x-(1y)-?

 

I dislike standard agreement that Pass either denies values or shows a penalty double.

This often forces responder with a balanced hand and moderate values to bid 1NT with an inadequate holding in the y-suit when 1NT invariably should be declared by opener.

I prefer Pass by responder to mean I may have a penalty double (unlikely) or no suitable bid (the normal case).

When advancer passes on the first sequence it becomes extremely unlikely that responder is broke and I tend to balance with 1NT on 12-14 where on the second sequence it shows 18-19.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

No.

 

1x-(1y)-Pa-(Pa)

1NT

 

can be 13-14, as pard may eventually pass some 6-7 counts with no suitable bid.

 

In the case of

 

1x-(Pa)-Pa-(1y)

1NT

 

you know pard has 4-5 hcp at most, so it makes no sense to butt-in on 13-14.

[helene_t]

No.

 

1x-(1y)-Pa-(Pa)

1NT

 

can be 13-14, as pard may eventually pass some 6-7 counts with no suitable bid.

Please Nuno, you know very well that that is not mainstream. I think you should add something like "in my prefered style" when you post things like that.

 

Btw, what is pard supposed to do with his 7 count when you have shown "13-14 or 18-19" ?

[whereagles]

Not mainstream? I don't think so. I think with 18-19 you balance in dbl + NT bid.

 

You may be right, but the situations aren't really equivalent.

[kuhchung]

12-14

 

wat

[helene_t]

Not quite the same, by the way. On the first, opener is under pressure to keep it open with any 18-19 balanced, as well as some semibalanced or 3-suited 17-counts where there is no good alternative. 1NT here doesn't even strictly promise a stopper in their suit.

 

On the second, opener can chose to pass if it doesn't feel profitable to play 1NT instead of defending. 1NT here without a stopper would be silly. OTOH it's a position in which I suppose some would consider a psyche.

 

But generally, both will be 18-19 with 3+ cards in their suit.

[PhilKing]

Nobody in the history of bridge has got a good result by protecting with a weak NT here.

 

Disclaimer - the above is not true, but it's pretty abnormal not to play 1NT as 18-19 in both sequences (assuming a strong NT).