mike777 Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Assume BWS, 2/1, sayc 1Minor=1h(opp)=1s(you) 1s=4+spades?1s=5+spades? What is the standard default world class meaning of 1S here in a pick up game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard (unfortunately) is 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I don't think it's "unfortunate". It's just a way to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard standard meaning is 5+♠, the usual agreement for top pairs is 4+♠.The standard 'mad scientist' meaning is: Dbl = 4+♠1♠ = Unsuitable for 1NT and no 4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epeeist Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard standard meaning is 5+♠, the usual agreement for top pairs is 4+♠.The standard 'mad scientist' meaning is: Dbl = 4+♠1♠ = Unsuitable for 1NT and no 4♠If I understood the original situation, it was one in which your partner opens one of a minor, the intervening opponent overcalls one heart, and you bid one spade. I'm unqualified to speculate on how world-class players treat this. My intermediate understanding of SAYC, however, is that one-level overcalls even with interference only show 4+ cards in the suit. Not 5+. See e.g. the SAYC system description: http://www.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/S...gle%20pages.pdf "Bids mean the same things they meant without the intervening bid" (p. 7, competitive bidding). Thus to my understanding the one spade bid shows only 4+ spades. If, of course, we're speaking of strict SAYC. I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. Since that would mean that, in this one respect at least, I've been bidding at a world-class level... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 We play: dbl = 4♠1♠ = 5+♠ This way opener knows if we have a ♠ fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 No, 1♠ shows a 5-card, double shows a 4-card. See page 7 (Negative double). Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦? Dbl = 4+♥1♥ = 4+♠1♠ = not suitable for 1NT and no 4 card M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S. How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epeeist Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 No, 1♠ shows a 5-card, double shows a 4-card. See page 7 (Negative double). Btw, what does the Mad Scientist do when 1♣ is overcalled with 1♦? Yes, of course you're right, it even gives exactly this example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S. How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing. By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S. How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing. By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play. THere are many other world class players play it the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 With us: 1♦ (1♥) 1♠ = 4 or more spades <double is denying four spades, minor oriented) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 The standard default world class meaning is 4S. The standard default meaning is 5S. How do you define world class? I think in BWS, 1s=5 is default. You can play 1s=4+, but that is another thing. By looking at what the top Poles and Italians play. THere are many other world class players play it the other way. Fly the question was "standard expert default".No doubt there are many world class players who play it the other way, so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Ron - For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Ron - For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean? Peter Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 "Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor. " A double which denies the unbid major doesn't sound like "takeout" to me. Not that I think you are wrong as to the facts - I just think "takeout" is a bit misleading. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 "Just what it sounds like.. takeout, but here, shows the other minor, and often mild support of opener minor. " A double which denies the unbid major doesn't sound like "takeout" to me. Not that I think you are wrong as to the facts - I just think "takeout" is a bit misleading. Peter What is the word for "I have to bid but have no good bid to make, therefore I'll double"? Because that is exactly the sort of double this is. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Ron - For the people who play 1m-1H-1S as 4+, what does 1m-1H-X mean? Peter Hi Peter,Exactly what Ben's reply stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 I once thought about this situation. What I concluded is this: if you play support doubles or raise spades freely with 3 cards, then you're better off playing like this: 1m 1H 1S = artificial, a good hand not fit for other bids1m 1H X = 4+ spades. Opener bids 1S with a min and 3 cards or 2/3/4S with 4. If RHO bids, opener either uses supp double or raises to 2M on 3/4 cards. However, if you don't like supp doubles nor to raise on 3 cards, it's better to play it the other way: 1m 1H 1S = 5 spades1m 1H X = 4 spades, regular take-out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 However, if you don't like supp doubles nor to raise on 3 cards, it's better to play it the other way: 1m 1H 1S = 5 spades1m 1H X = 4 spades, regular take-out So what do you do withxxxxxxKxxAQxx after a 1D opening and a 1H overcall? Give up and roll over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 However, if you don't like supp doubles nor to raise on 3 cards, it's better to play it the other way: 1m 1H 1S = 5 spades1m 1H X = 4 spades, regular take-out So what do you do withxxxxxxKxxAQxx after a 1D opening and a 1H overcall? Give up and roll over? I admit this is the cost playing 1S=5 and x=4 has to pay. On the other hand you can raise to 2M wihtout costing much. Furthermore I gain when LHO is going to raise to 2H or 3H. For example, 1C-1H-1S(4+)-3H(4H)?? S: ATXH: XXXD: AC: AKJTXX Each method has merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Can we ALL agree that playing 2/1 with a decent "pick up" partner can lead too many, many common bidding points that "common sense" may still leave us with 2 hand types that makes us guess? Thank you all for your wonderful and thoughtful replies. This is a very common auction, yet this seems to be a situation where thinking partners in a "pick up" game can disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 However, if you don't like supp doubles nor to raise on 3 cards, it's better to play it the other way: 1m 1H 1S = 5 spades1m 1H X = 4 spades, regular take-out So what do you do withxxxxxxKxxAQxx after a 1D opening and a 1H overcall? Give up and roll over? Well in that case you will have to trust your insticts and bid: - 1NT, if partner agreed not to expect a ♥ stopper- 2♣, if this is not to much forcing- pass, trusting that partner will reopen, if your LHO will pass too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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