double and double again - how t/o oriented?

[helene_t]

(1♥)-dbl-(1NT)-pass

(2♥)-dbl*

 

*what doest this mean? If you were to express this t/o-orientenness of this double in terms of expected number of hearts, what would you say?

[manudude03]

Somewhere between 0 and 2. I chose 1-2 as a void would increase the chances of having an overcall that's too strong, so 2 feels more likely than 0.

[helene_t]

Suppose you have a 19-count 33(43). Would you double, pass, or bid 2NT (assuming you have a stopper in hearts)?

[whereagles]

I have

 

(1x) pass (1y) pass

(2x) dbl

 

defined as penalty. But

 

(1x) dbl (1y) pass

(2x) dbl

 

is more indefinite, except for the fact it must show some extras. I would say something like:

 

- 14-17 H and 44+ outside suits x and y

- 14-17 H and 4441 or 5440 (short x) if y = NT

- 18+H and an undefined hand, probably of the strong NT kind or eventually take-outish shape

 

So in answer to your query, there is no "typical" heart number for doubler. Responder tries to guess what doubler is up to and acts accordingly. Not ideal, but hey it isn't rocket science either :)

[PhilKing]

I hate 33(43) so I would pass a balanced 19. Either partner has 4 spades and chose not to act, or lefty has a concealed 4-carder for his 1NT bid, in which case he probably is not fooling around.

 

Either way we are going nowhere.

[mikeh]

Rule number 1 for takeout doubles: when the 1st double is takeout of a suit, a second double of the same suit is still takeout.

 

If one has the balanced 19-20 count with length in opener's suit, you probably have no plus available your way and, if you do, it is usually a partscore that will score roughly the same, or worse (esp if they are red) than defending.

 

Meanwhile, how else are you bidding a 4=1=4=4 17 count?

 

Since the balanced hand has good defence and poor offence, and the takeout hand has the reverse, it makes sense to use the second double to show the takeout.

 

You can't have it both ways, at least not with any safety (hey, partner...how good is your table feel?), so make a choice and takeout has the odds in its favour.

 

As for number of hearts: absolutely fewer than 3. If 2, then we have a very good hand. Typically 1. Rarely zero simply on frequency grounds.

[kenberg]

I voted 0-1. I think 1 is by far the most likely but 0 is maybe more likely than 2. The reason is that if he has 2, then he has only three of something else so he will be at least a little more wary of forcing me to bid. He gets dealt 2 more often then he gets dealt 0, but he is more comfortable doubling again when he has 0.

 

If doubler has 0 then partner of the doubler could well have five, with the other eight divided 6-2. I think he still needs to take it out. The NT bidder has some values, aka entris, and he probably has a couple of hearts. Maybe with a suitable heart holding he can pass, but J9xxx isn't it.

[quiddity]

You can see why psyching 1NT is so effective. :-)

[mikeh]

You can see why psyching 1NT is so effective. :-)

Since it usually shows 8-10 (some might say a decent 7), and since one hopes that opener isn't fielding the psyche, it is not actually a good psyche. Opener may bid (way) too much or may double the opps in a cold contract, etc. As with most mastermind actions, these work best with a comatose partner and are awful with a thinking one.

 

There are effective psyches....bidding 2♥ after 1♠ [x] can be effective if one holds lots of spades, and this was a popular treatment before preemptive theory was understood and jump raises became weak, etc. Plus it really never works against good opps unless they are dealt unbiddable hands.