MI - clear - but has EW been damaged?

[schulken]

[hv=pc=n&s=s6532ha73djt32ca8&w=skqjt7hk8d95c9632&n=sh94daq8764ckqt75&e=sa984hqjt652dkcj4&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=1hp1s2nppd3d3s4d4s5dppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Club game. ACBL (obviously, since I asked in the title if EW has been damaged). NS are B players and EW are C.

 

After N bid 2 NT, E asked S what the bid meant. He was told it was a strong hand and a natural bid. The auction continued as shown. I was called only after the hand had been completed with NS making 7. EW stated they had been damaged because N's bid (and the NS agreement) was that the N bid was the unusual NT showing the unbid suits. As C players, I do not believe they saw an opportunity to double a contract and get the double taken away as an adjusted score - W stated that with his hand and partner having opening values, he thought he could set the contract. Perhaps by the time he becomes a B player, he will better grasp the concept of distribution.

 

However, in analyzing the auction, I am somewhat concerned about N's 3♦ call. Since N knows about the MI, should she be required to wait for her partner to awaken and remove the contract to safer territory? I ruled that W's first double gave N the right to get the auction back on track. W could have passed 2 NT, which makes according to double dummy. Indeed, if 2 NT X gets passed out - assuming N must pass and S hasn't awakened yet - and NS makes this contract, the scores are similar (490 v. 750 - both higher than the NV game that would have resulted from W keeping his red card in the bid box). You may question the wisdom of playing E for the stiff K♦, but they did it in 5♦ X as the hand was played, so I can't see taking this line of play away.

 

As always, thoughts appreciated.

[Cyberyeti]

A) 2N makes DD, but that's because you drop the K♦, in practice it probably goes at least -1 and in a ruling may well go -6 (heart lead, diamond finesse) although there is an argument that making 2N undoubled will get you no matchpoints so you try to get even with 6♦-1 by cashing 7 tricks and improve on it if K♦ drops, this goes away if doubled.

 

B) N has what he showed by 2N, he can't bid 3♦. S ought to be aware there's a 50 point pack here, but can he or indeed ought he to redouble ?

 

Comparing 2Nx is wrong, if W has the correct info, he has the option to pass 2N out. The double of 5♦ is fine, he's expecting N to have a flattish hand prob 2263 or similar on the explanation he's been given rather than all that shape.

[whereagles]

3♦ is perfectly fine. Result stands.

 

Suppose South gave the correct explanation and acted accordingly. North has a 6-5 and got doubled. It's only normal to bid 3♦ now, as partner having 5422 is not unusual.

 

The raise to 5 may have been induced by the UI, but North can always argue that a partner who didn't bid 3♦ before cannot bid 4 now unless he had forgotten the 2NT convention And besides, North is NV vs V and has a void.

[WellSpyder]

3♦ is perfectly fine. Result stands.

 

Suppose South gave the correct explanation and acted accordingly. North has a 6-5 and got doubled. It's only normal to bid 3♦ now, as partner having 5422 is not unusual.

I'm not convinced that 5422 isn't unusual - that doesn't sound like a normal pass of 2N to me. But 3♦ may be OK - I think it is a tricky judgment.

 

However, I think we need to consider the MI as well as the UI! Surely with correct information E would be tempted to support his partner's spades? Now I think the auction will be at 4♠ by the time it gets back to north, and I expect pass to be a LA at this point.

[gordontd]

ACBL (obviously, since I asked in the title if EW has been damaged).

I'm not sure if you are making a linguistic or a legal point here.

[ahydra]

However, I think we need to consider the MI as well as the UI! Surely with correct information E would be tempted to support his partner's spades? Now I think the auction will be at 4♠ by the time it gets back to north, and I expect pass to be a LA at this point.

 

East certainly can't justify more than 3S. Bearing in mind this is matchpoints, EW are C players and West hasn't got a lot of extras or shape, I'm in two minds as to whether West would raise to 4S.

 

Even if West does bid 4S, North is NV vs V with a void in spades, ostensibly a 4-loser hand; again it's not clear (poll needed), but he may well be within his rights to bid 4NT. Give partner a pile of rubbish like xxxx xxxx xx Jxx and 5DX still rates to be cheap.

 

I can't blame North for bidding 3D after 2NT gets doubled. If he'd tried something like 4D over 3H then that'd be different.

 

ahydra

[Trinidad]

I'm not convinced that 5422 isn't unusual - that doesn't sound like a normal pass of 2N to me. But 3♦ may be OK - I think it is a tricky judgment.

 

However, I think we need to consider the MI as well as the UI! Surely with correct information E would be tempted to support his partner's spades? Now I think the auction will be at 4♠ by the time it gets back to north, and I expect pass to be a LA at this point.

I think that with correct information West would be tempted to pass 2NT. As Cyberyeti points out 2NT only makes because the ♦K drops.

 

I would adjust to 2NT by North and rule that North will finesse in diamonds after winning the heart lead (2NT-6, -300). That certainly is a reasonable and likely outcome without the MI.

 

Rik

[campboy]

But with correct information East will bid 3♠, so West won't have a chance to pass 2NT out.

[steve2005]

If south thinks north's bid is a strong balanced hand why did he pass 2N? He has 9 pts 3N should be pretty good.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s6532ha73djt32ca8&w=skqjt7hk8d95c9632&n=sh94daq8764ckqt75&e=sa984hqjt652dkcj4&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=1hp1s2nppd3d3s4d4s5dppdppp]399|300|

Club game. ACBL (obviously, since I asked in the title if EW has been damaged). NS are B players and EW are C.

After N bid 2 NT, E asked S what the bid meant. He was told it was a strong hand and a natural bid. The auction continued as shown. I was called only after the hand had been completed with NS making 7. EW stated they had been damaged because N's bid (and the NS agreement) was that the N bid was the unusual NT showing the unbid suits. As C players, I do not believe they saw an opportunity to double a contract and get the double taken away as an adjusted score - W stated that with his hand and partner having opening values, he thought he could set the contract. Perhaps by the time he becomes a B player, he will better grasp the concept of distribution.

However, in analyzing the auction, I am somewhat concerned about N's 3♦ call. Since N knows about the MI, should she be required to wait for her partner to awaken and remove the contract to safer territory? I ruled that W's first double gave N the right to get the auction back on track. W could have passed 2 NT, which makes according to double dummy. Indeed, if 2 NT X gets passed out - assuming N must pass and S hasn't awakened yet - and NS makes this contract, the scores are similar (490 v. 750 - both higher than the NV game that would have resulted from W keeping his red card in the bid box). You may question the wisdom of playing E for the stiff K♦, but they did it in 5♦ X as the hand was played, so I can't see taking this line of play away.[/hv]

IMO

• South seems to have allowed for his misexplanation by passing 2N, and later, raising ♦. That evidence is consistent with South being unsure of the partnership agreement and making a guess -- a tactic that almost always damages opponents.
• A poll would probably confirm that Pass is an LA for North. On a heart lead in 2NX, a normal line of play would be to cross to ♣A and take the ♦ finesse. So the director might adjust to 2NX-6. (Declarer's play in 5♦ doesn't seem relevant, when the subsequent auction may have affected it. Also, cashing ♦A is a normal safety play in an excellent doubled contract, to avoid the risk of ruffs).
• If the UI is judged to suggest 3♦ over other LAs, then the director should consider a PP for North-South, even if he judges that East-West aren't damaged.
• The director deemed that 3♦ is not suggested over other LAs. Presumably, in 5♦X. North corrected South's explanation before the opening lead. This might allow West to replace his double with some other call to limit the damage suffered by East-West.

[barmar]

Can South really have a strong enough 5422 hand for 2NT to be reasonable when he passed over 1♥? I think the auction by itself is evidence that there has been a misunderstanding. Maybe with 5-5 in his suits he should pass and let South take preference, but with 6-5 he's justified in taking control and bidding his 6-card suit.

 

But the question isn't about whether North used UI in pulling the double, it's whether EW were damaged by the MI. Experienced players would probably realize that this explanation is unlikely, and they know that when the opponents are in a stupid contract because of a misunderstanding you shouldn't reopen because gives them a chance to recover (or at least lessen the damage). But do flight C players get more consideration? Since they don't know better, they take the explanation at face value, and don't see the danger in doubling.

When there's MI, I think the Laws generally give plenty of benefit of the doubt to the NOS.

[WellSpyder]

A poll would probably confirm that, especially when he has equal length in the minors, Pass is an LA for North.

The minors may be equal length in terms of millimetres, but they don't have the same number of cards....

[nige1]

The minors may be equal length in terms of millimetres, but they don't have the same number of cards....

Thanks WellSpyder :) You replied as I was correcting that mistake :( Sorry :(

[weejonnie]

It's funny but the other day I had, as North, a hand very similar to the above - the only difference is that South had:

 

♠65432

♥AQ

♦T532

♣A8

 

and after my pass of the X of 2NT he redoubled and we made 8 tricks - losing a diamond and 4 spades.

 

On the actual hand it is 100% certain that North cannot bid 3♦. He knows that South knows that he has a 2-suited hand for the minors and he can leave the final decision to South. His hand is fully up to the requirements of an unusual no trump so he has no reason (other than the UI) for pulling it.

[Fluffy]

The most odd action is south's pass of 2NT, director should had inquired about his reasoning.

 

WellSpyder has it right IMO, East will bid 3♠ and we will have to poll C players about commiting to the 5 level at favourable with a 6-5.