What is suggested ?

[Cyberyeti]

Auction goes 1N(dealer, 12-14 announced)-X(pens)-2♥ alerted, the 4th player asks what 2♥ was (both majors) then passes.

 

What is suggested to the doubler ?

 

On his actual hand (void, 109x, AKQxxx, AJ10x) I think 3♦ is clear enough, but in a more marginal case what do you think is suggested about partner's hand by the question ?

[dicklont]

The ask suggests a heart suit, the pass suggests a spade suit. The hand suggests a beginner.

[helene_t]

Maybe asker has a general policy of asking after an alert. Maybe the forcing character of a pass depends on the meaning of 2h and other weak options than pass may be available. otherwise it probably suggests values or maybe something in one of the majors.

 

Normally I would allow doubler to do what he wants unless he does something extremely weird that would only make sense if his partner has values.

[Cyberyeti]

The ask suggests a heart suit, the pass suggests a spade suit. The hand suggests a beginner.

 

The hand given is the doubler's hand not the asker, and he's no beginner and a decent player.

[Cascade]

I think the break to question and then pass suggests that the player has one or both majors (unless this is really a player who always asks).

 

To me this means that pass and double are suggested over bidding.

 

Depending on the methods it might also be possible that partner has a marginal takeout double of spades over a transfer - although this seems extremely unlikely given our void.

 

If I had to guess partner i think partner is most likely to have 5+ spades and marginal values to bid. With more values partner could bid anyway.

 

Not sure if this has ever been discussed but it just occurred to me that what is suggested might be dependent on the hand we hold. If I have a balancedish hand with a five card minor then pass or double may be suggested over bidding our minor - as we are swayed by our balance and partners likely major length but we might have bid our suit if bidding came back in tempo. On the other hand with a slightly more distributional hand bidding may be suggested over pass (or double) as now we may be more swayed by the fact that partner has a few values but perhaps we would have passed if the bidding came back in tempo deeming that the three-level was too rich.

 

On the actual hand I agree that 3D is clear enough.

[Cyberyeti]

The asker was me and I don't always ask.

 

X of 2♥ would be pens for us so hearts or both majors are unlikely.

[fbuijsen]

The bidding situation at hand is special enough that there are a host of possible meanings for the 2♥ bid. Therefore I would expect 4th hand to ask here nearly always (given the alert).

So asking doesn't suggest a whole lot at all, other than enough interest in the auction that he wants to know what it means. So at most it suggests some values.

 

In fact, I would suggest that NOT asking here gives more UI: a total disinterest in the auction and therefore it suggests a very weak hand more strongly that an ask suggests values.

[Zelandakh]

Asking suggests wanting to know what the alert was for. Not asking here would transmit more UI than asking imo. I do not know how anyone can make a good stab at getting into the Asker's mind without first knowing what double would have meant.

[whereagles]

Doesn't suggest anything. And in any case 3♦ is obvious.

[Finch]

The bidding situation at hand is special enough that there are a host of possible meanings for the 2♥ bid. Therefore I would expect 4th hand to ask here nearly always (given the alert).So asking doesn't suggest a whole lot at all, other than enough interest in the auction that he wants to know what it means. So at most it suggests some values. In fact, I would suggest that NOT asking here gives more UI: a total disinterest in the auction and therefore it suggests a very weak hand more strongly that an ask suggests values.

 

 

Asking suggests wanting to know what the alert was for. Not asking here would transmit more UI than asking imo. I do not know how anyone can make a good stab at getting into the Asker's mind without first knowing what double would have meant.

 

I agree with these two posts. Asking suggests very little, much more so than passing without asking.

 

Even without that thought, the original question is unanswerable without knowing the doubling side's methods. For us (for example), the meaning of all of 4th seat's actions - including in some instances which hands pass - depends on whether 2H is forcing or not/ artificial or not. Some other people play forcing pass at the 2-level and their actions may depend even more strongly on the meaning of 2H if pass would be forcing. Certainly I would ask 100% of the time after a 2m bid because pass is forcing and all our calls, including pass, depend on the meaning of the bid.

[Cyberyeti]

We play pass forcing over 2m but not over 2M, and X for pens, with good and bad ways of bidding suits.

[the hog]

Agree with Nuno. Asking suggests nothing. 3D is clearcut.

[nige1]

Auction goes 1N(dealer, 12-14 announced)-X(pens)-2♥ alerted, the 4th player asks what 2♥ was (both majors) then passes. What is suggested to the doubler ? On his actual hand (void, 109x, AKQxxx, AJ10x) I think 3♦ is clear enough, but in a more marginal case what do you think is suggested about partner's hand by the question ?

The significance of partner's ask and pass often depends on the meaning of 2♥ and always depends on partnership habits and agreements:

• If partner always asks in this context, then asking conveys no UI.
• Otherwise partner will probably try to avoid risking UI: he is likely to ask only when he needs to know i.e. when the meaning of 2♥ may affect his call. (Assuming EBU regulations. David Burn agrees with the world and his wife, that the EBU approach makes little sense but we're all at the mercy of the idiosyncrasies of local regulators).
• In the UK, most players use a takeout double in this position over a natural 2♥ but would revert to penalty if 2♥ is artificial.
• In the UK, the likely meaning of an alerted 2♥ is at least 44 in the majors.
• Hence, in the UK, the most likely significance of asking and passing is that partner has ♥.

[Cyberyeti]

Agree with Nuno. Asking suggests nothing. 3D is clearcut.

 

I agree with this, it was in a friendly club and no director was called when the 3♦ hand came down as dummy. We just couldn't work out if anything was suggested had something else come down on the deck. The hand itself is mildly amusing.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat753hk5d32c9852&w=skq84ha742d65ckq3&n=sht93dakq984cajt7&e=sj962hqj86djt7c64&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1nd2h(both%20majors)pp3dp3nppp&p=skh3s6s5sqh9s2]399|300[/hv]

 

W now played another spade and that was 10 easy tricks. I think I get it right if a small club is put through as it appears they're both 4-4 in the majors so the diamonds aren't running if E has a stiff club honour. On a diamond switch, I have to cash a few diamonds then trust to luck by exiting J♣.

[barmar]

I disagree with the people who say not asking passes more UI than asking. Unless you're an "always" asker, they both pass about the same amount of UI. It's the fact that you made a choice whether or not to ask that passes the UI; the particular choice merely pins down which UI you passed.

 

Which raises the usual problem in situations like this: unless you always ask, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Zelandakh]

In the UK, the likely meaning of an alerted 2♥ is at least 44 in the majors.

Perhaps it depends on where you play and at what level but the most common alertable meaning I see from UK players is an Exit Transfer showing spades (assuming Announcements have not been extended to this auction since I was playing there anyway).

 

I disagree with the people who say not asking passes more UI than asking. Unless you're an "always" asker, they both pass about the same amount of UI.

Passing without asking passes more UI because there are more hands where you want/need to ask. Because of that you should really try to ask all the time in this kind of situation and I would hope that any half-decent EBU TD would see it similarly despite the infamous regulation.

[nige1]

Perhaps it depends on where you play and at what level but the most common alertable meaning I see from UK players is an Exit Transfer showing spades (assuming Announcements have not been extended to this auction since I was playing there anyway).

OK. If opponents explain "Exit transfer" then the likely significance of asking and passing is that partner has ♠ (although it still depends on your agreements) .

Passing without asking passes more UI because there are more hands where you want/need to ask. Because of that you should really try to ask all the time in this kind of situation and I would hope that any half-decent EBU TD would see it similarly despite the infamous regulation.

Although that seems logical, it seems unfair to the player who trusts EBU guidelines.

The asker was me and I don't always ask.

[Finch]

I honestly have no idea what all these references to 'the infamous regulation' are about.

I've just been reading EBU regulations and I can find absolutely nothing anywhere that says, or implies, any of the things mentioned here. I honestly don't know what the 'EBU approach' referred to is that is different from what the 'world and his wife' play.

 

The only EBU-specific regulation I can find that is at all relevant says

 

"..If a player shows unusual interest in one or more calls of the auction, then this may give rise to UI..... It may be in a player's interests to defer questions until either he is about to make the opening lead or his partner's lead is face-down on the table"

 

Asking about an alerted call at one's first turn to bid when all 3 players have already bid or doubled - and partner has shown a strong hand - is not taking 'unusual interest'; it is normal. Saying 'does that show spades as well?' 'Really? You mean it actually promises at least four spades?' followed by a pass (if playing take-out doubles) passes UI. That is taking unusual interest.

[Finch]

Because of that you should really try to ask all the time in this kind of situation and I would hope that any half-decent EBU TD would see it similarly despite the infamous regulation.

 

 

Although that seems logical, it seems unfair to the player who trusts EBU guidelines.

 

Nope, can't find any EBU guidelines that says you shouldn't ask all the time in this kind of situation

When my partner opens 1NT and the next hand overcalls, alerted, I always ask unless I already know the meaning from their convention card.

 

What the EBU don't like is saying that you always ask about every single alerted bid. Because, in practice, people don't even if they say they do. That's completely different from 'always asking' in the middle of a live competitive auction. In some circumstances it passes enormous UI not to ask (e.g. 1C 1H 1S (alerted). If you double 1S, that's takeout of spades/snapdragon. If you ask about 1S and discover it denies 4 spades and double, that shows spades.)

[mycroft]

I'm not in England, and my answer to "what does the question show" is "I hold 13 cards and I might want to make a sane call with them." Like most, I can't imagine *not* asking in this auction; clearly there will be hands where I want to double, and those hands will depend on what my double means, and that depends on what the call shows. I might have them, I might not. But if I only ask when I think it might matter, it means I am passing UI when I don't, and trust me, I will find out that it mattered one of these times, because there's no way I would have guessed it meant *that*.

[nige1]

Nope, can't find any EBU guidelines that says you shouldn't ask all the time in this kind of situation When my partner opens 1NT and the next hand overcalls, alerted, I always ask unless I already know the meaning from their convention card. What the EBU don't like is saying that you always ask about every single alerted bid. Because, in practice, people don't even if they say they do. That's completely different from 'always asking' in the middle of a live competitive auction. In some circumstances it passes enormous UI not to ask (e.g. 1C 1H 1S (alerted). If you double 1S, that's takeout of spades/snapdragon. If you ask about 1S and discover it denies 4 spades and double, that shows spades.)

A player has the right to ask questions at his turn to call or play, but exercising this right may have consequences. If a player shows unusual interest in one or more calls of the auction, then this may give rise to unauthorised information. His partner must avoid taking advantage. It may be in a player's interests to defer questions until either he is about to make the opening lead or his partner's lead is face-down on the table.

The Blue Book warns you that UI from asking an immediate question might constrain partner's options. David Burn and now FrancesHinden et al point out that failure to ask provides UI, too. And I think that remedies are obvious :)

[olien]

Asking suggests wanting to know what the alert was for. Not asking here would transmit more UI than asking imo. I do not know how anyone can make a good stab at getting into the Asker's mind without first knowing what double would have meant.

 

This is why I think a player should be required to ask about the meaning of any alert in a competitive auction. Otherwise a failure to ask typically expresses a 'weak' hand with no interest in competing.

[helene_t]

This is why I think a player should be required to ask about the meaning of any alert in a competitive auction. Otherwise a failure to ask typically expresses a 'weak' hand with no interest in competing.

I think that it is a good point and probably you should ask whenever there is a real risk that partner may come under ethical pressure if you don't ask.

 

But requiring players always to ask goes too far IMHO. Sometimes failure to ask could also mean "I read your CC so no need to ask".

 

It can happen that opps don't have a solid understanding, and giving the explanation creates UI. They may respond along the lines of "I am not sure, I can tell you what I think it means but I would have to ask my partner to leave the table then". But they don't always do that. And if they do, they have still transmitted the UI that they are not sure what the call meant.

[whereagles]

This is an old debate, and I haven't yet seen a solution better than that of Hamman:

 

Randomly ask/not ask.

 

Then, when one asks, others cannot tell whether the intention is legitimate or casual.

[Zelandakh]

This is an old debate, and I haven't yet seen a solution better than that of Hamman:

 

Randomly ask/not ask.

How about always asking on the first round unless you think the opps might be having a misunderstanding (perhaps with specific exceptions) and randomly asking thereafter?