mojila Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 opening 1♠- P - 4N -P - ? After opening 1♠ opp pass is 4N blackwood, Quantitative or for minors ..? Openner plays Rkc but agreed to play reg Blackwood. mojila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 I would say Blackwood of whatever flavour. 1S opener is very wide range, both in high card strength and in distribution. Both of those features need to be narrowed down before you can possibly decide on an informed basis that a quantitative 4N is appropriate. By contrast if you have a good Spade fit and values for slam, with missing top controls being the only risk, then there is no point waiting to ask. A possible exception is that opener may have a void, which may or may not be opposite an ace held by responder. Blackwood is not good at identifying this. But there may not be any guarantee that an alternative route will do so, and you may reasonable assume a low frequency of that problem. 4N for the minors would be a really fringe treatment. It may have some value in preventing the opponents from bidding Hearts. But that aside, you can certainly show both minors by starting with 2-minor response, which is likely to be more helpful. If opener can have 12-21 HCP, how is he to know whether to bid 5-minor, 6-minor or 7-minor over 4N? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 This is normally played as regular Blackwood. To ask for keycards, first make a forcing raise and then bid 4nt.It shouldn't be for the minors in any case. With both minors just bid 2 ♦ and then 3 ♣. That gives you much more bidding space 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojila Posted June 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 OK I will add hand... [hv=pc=n&s=sha98daj63cakj932&w=sqjt2h6dq9542cq84&n=sak9754hjt543d87c&e=s863hkq72dktct765]399|300[/hv] 1♠-P-4N-P- ? (bid) is this 4N blackwood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Why did South bid Blackwood? The number of aces that North has is possibly the information he is least interested in! Anyway, North will have to show one ace. If you have a method to show speciafically one ace plus a void in clubs, by all means use it, but don't count a void as an ace unless you know that partner doesn't have the ace in that suit. Remember:- Don't use Blackwood if you have a void (unless you know whether partner has the ace in that suit).- Don't use blackwood if you don't know which suit is trump.- Don't use Blackwood if you are not confident in slam if you turn out to be missing one ace. A better auction is (assuming that it is your style to open with the North hand)1♠-2♣2♥-3♦* (fourth suit forcing)3♥-4♦* (sets hearts as trump)4♥-5♣* (cue, assuming your style is not to cue shortness in partner's suit, otherwise you could bid 4♠)5♥-6♥ It is still not perfect since it is hard for North to know whether his ♠A is enough for bidding grand slam or whether South is fishing for good trumps. Maybe someone else can suggest a better auction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 A simple change of suit does not deny a slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 This is a very obvious 2♣ bid, you have no idea which suit you want to play in. 6♥ is a pretty bad contract, but this is difficult to diagnose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Hi, Most people would have a way to set spades as trumps in a forcing manner below 4S.After having done so, it is clear, that 4NT is RKCB.If you dont have a way to set spades as trumps in a forcing manner, than the RKCB meaningcan be useful sometimes. A quantitative 4NT works best, if the range the other player can hold is limited.In the given auction, all we know, that we face an opening bid, which may be 10-12,upto whatever is left. The idea behind 4NT as showing the minors is, that we want to shut out the opponents.In the given auction one opponent passed, and our partner opened, so we dont have to fearpreemption. With kind regardsMarlowe PS: South should bid 2C, over a 1S opening bid. I may also recommend, that Norths passesinstead of opening 1S, at least unless you have a firm grip on uncontested auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Why did South bid Blackwood? The number of aces that North has is possibly the information he is least interested in! On the contrary: if north responds to RKCB denying AK of spades, odds for 6♣ are pretty good :) (Not that 4NT is a good bid... lol) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Agree 4NT is bad and 2♣ instead is clear. I would probably land in 4♥ and be happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Is this really a 1♠ opener ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Let's play a game: Can anyone guess as to what South intended 4NT to mean after looking at the hand (Bwd, RKCB, quant, minors)? Can anyone guess as to which hand the OP held, if any (N, S, E-W, none)? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Let's play a game: Can anyone guess as to what South intended 4NT to mean after looking at the hand (Bwd, RKCB, quant, minors)? Can anyone guess as to which hand the OP held, if any (N, S, E-W, none)? :) New partner asking bid... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Responding to OP's actual question, for which it was unnecessary to see the diagram: 4N is clearly Blackwood. Agreeing with other comments after seeing the diagram: North and South are both lunatics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 North and South are both lunatics.This is a bit harsh. North's opening may or may not conform to the partnership's style. 4NT is a very bad bid indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojila Posted June 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Clearly north hand is not opener. Fails rule of 20. if in 4th seat than fails pearson count too.Second major suite contains more than 3 cards so can not open weak two. North hand is a pass hand, North should not open. South 4N looks like Blackwood. But seeingSouth hand why south bid Blackwood he/she has Spade void. mojila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Clearly north hand is not opener. Fails rule of 20.But passes Rule of 19 which many prefer. It also has 2+HT and a 6 card suit, which makes it an opening by 1940s standards. In other words, you can agree to open this hand if you like; it is a matter of partnership agreement. Second major suite contains more than 3 cards so can not open weak two.Just occasionally someone here might suggest opening a Weak 2 with a 4 card major on the side. Naturally we throw them in a box for a week but every now and then they come back and spread their heresy. South 4N looks like Blackwood.Then why did you ask the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 [hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp1cp1sp2dp2hp3hp3sp4cp4hppp]133|100[/hv] On the auction given, though, I agree that 4NT is Blackwood. Not RCKB, apparently this pair are not playing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 I think I got it, Zel. OP was south and intended 4NT as a quant invite. His partner took it as blackwood and they had a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 opening the north hand is perfectly normal. south needs to learn how to bid, for example by bidding his suits and looking for a fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShirleyMqz Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 4NT in that bidding sequence is Blackwood if you're playing it. But South should not have used Blackwood with that hand. Your partnership has no established fit (Blackwood implies that you do have a fit in spades but that certainly isn't true here) so you have no idea what the best spot is. 4NT is also a terrible bid if partner meant it to show minors (which would be a nonstandard agreement) for a number of reasons. His clubs and diamonds are far from equal and a heart contract is also possible (and on the actual hand your partnership's best fit). And there is no reason to use a bulky bid like 4NT to show the minor suit hand in any case. I don't know anybody who plays 4NT as a quantitative notrump invite over a suit opening. Most partnerships do play that it would be an invite to 6NT over a 1NT opening (and 5NT would be an invite to bid 7NT with a maximum but 6NT otherwise) but that isn't what opener bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 1♠-4N is usually the wrong bid no matter what it means. sure you can construct some freak hand where u really need to know if partner has exactly A♠. but you have 15 other possible bids (and thousands of possible sequences) 99.9% of the time (or higher) surely one of these are better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShirleyMqz Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Is this really a 1♠ opener ? It doesn't meet the traditional HCP requirements. It does meet the requirements for a 2S opening but the five card heart suit makes that a poor choice; it will be difficult to find a heart fit if that is your best contract. But "6-5, come alive". Hands with this much distribution tend to play well (not quite so much this time because partner's hand doesn't fit well but you don't know that going in) so it tends to be winning bridge to open them, especially when your suits are the majors. So I would open this, especially if I'm playing 2/1 because I don't have to worry so much about partner making big jumps in the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojila Posted June 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 with antrax ... no Opener was North, North did respond as Reg blackwood reluctantly. (at the end indicated she took as !ss suite ) Asking question here was reason thaat some player said we play Like that. mojila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Conveniently, Blackwood and Minors have the same response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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