2nd seat vul: Kx AT9x x KT8xxx

[diana_eva]

For better or worse you decide to open this hand in 2nd vul vs non-vul (IMPs if it matters):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SK4HAT95D5CKT8532&d=e&v=n&a=P1C2HDP?]300|200[/hv]

 

1) Would you open? How far off would you say this is in a 2/1 partnership with no special style agreements

2) Would you consider passing for penalties after partner's X?

[the hog]

I would open and I would bid 3C now. I would not consider passing.

[gwnn]

I agree 100% with 1C. I like both pass and 3C, but I would pass myself. I don't think they will make, especially as RHO passed already. It's probably a free 100/300, and who knows if we make game. 3C is nice if partner has a minimum double and passes, then we get a free +110 without worrying about them making game. At the same time the hand is likely not to play well as RHO can overruff dummy.

 

And I know the hand so I shouldn't have posted at all.

[gszes]

I would not have opened that particular hand ==the distribution

is ok but not much else makes me happy about opening change it

to something more like xx AT9x x AQxxxx and 1c seems much better.

The lack of defense alone should always make one wary about opening

the bidding. If I had opted to open 1c with xx KQJT x Axxxxx now there

is a ten count where I think passing would be an excellent choice:)

 

Assuming 1c is totally normal for your partnership it seems far too

dangerous to consider leaving the opps in 2h x. Your opening bid (on

a good day) might be worth 3 tricks and that means partner needs to

come up with 3 in order to set AND p hand cannot be right for us to

make game. A pass here takes a risk of a double game swing and that

is a whole lot to ask of a weak 1c opening bid.

 

run like the wind and bid

 

3c

 

and try to survive this battle.

[neilkaz]

Both are close decisions for me, but I have to agree with gszes' post.

[whereagles]

echoing Ron here.

[Finch]

Either pass or 3C could be right, but this doesn't look like a 'light' initial action to me, it looks like a normal opening bid.

[rmnka447]

It's close, but I wouldn't open this hand. Change the ♣ to KJ10xxx and I would open it.

 

Passing the double is masterminding the hand. Partner's hand can be anything from a hand with a long suit and not quite enough to bid at the 2/3 level directly to a rock crusher with 4 ♠s. Beating 2 ♥x for +100 may not be enough if you're making a part score. If you've got a game on, you've got to beat it 4 to get a better score. Anytime 2 ♥ makes, you're probably getting a bad result. You win big time when you beat it 2 or more versus a part score your way or 4 or more versus a game your way. Since you can't know which cards partner holds, passing is a big time top or bottom gamble.

 

I'm bidding 3 ♣ and letting partner take the next step, if any.

[gwnn]

Do we have to call each other names again? Masterminding is misdescribing your hand on purpose to get your partner to give the information you (think you) need. Certainly a signoff can never be a mastermind. I just like pass because I would like to defend 2Hx, not because I want to mislead partner or opponents.

 

And no, I don't agree that partner can have a weak hand with diamonds. Nowadays standard is 4+ spades, ~8+ points, either looking for a 4-4 fit or a hand a bit too weak for a direct (forcing) 2S bid. With a hand like Ax xx KJTxxx xxx people just pass and see what's up. This helps partner when they raise hearts.

[diana_eva]

Thanks for the replies. I posted in Interesting Hands by accident, meant to post in Intermediate-Advanced but misclicked the forum.

 

Nothing particularly interesting about this hand, except that at the table I had a very strong feeling that pass must be right and I found it hard to pull myself together and make the more logical choice of 3♣. I was curious if there's something to that gut feeling that pass is a valid choice or I shd give up on my feminine intuition and stick to logic :)

 

Oh and also it looked like a normal opening, but then again I posted some other (normal IMO) opening hands in the past and found that they weren't considered as obvious as I thought - hence the additional question of would you open it.

 

 

Here's the full hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=SK4HAT95D5CKT8532&w=SJ6HKJ7642DQJ84CJ&n=SAT98HQ83DA7CQ974&e=SQ7532HDKT9632CA6&d=e&v=n&a=P1C2HDP3CP]399|300[/hv]

[mike777]

Agree with one club and 3c.

 

fwiw I think north has the tough bid over 3c,

 

would love to see forums options at that point...tough.

 

agree pass by south seems more roth/ stone but that is ok if you agree.

[rhm]

I agree 100% with 1C. I like both pass and 3C, but I would pass myself. I don't think they will make, especially as RHO passed already. It's probably a free 100/300, and who knows if we make game. 3C is nice if partner has a minimum double and passes, then we get a free +110 without worrying about them making game. At the same time the hand is likely not to play well as RHO can overruff dummy.

The fact that RHO passed cuts both ways. LHO may have a hand he would not preempt with opposite an unpassed partner.

Passing will often hit the jackpot, but I would never consider Pass at IMPs

For all you know 7♣ might be laydown, say opposite ♠Axxx ♥x ♦Axx ♣Axxxx where 2♥ doubled might possibly make.

Granted this is unlikely to happen but I just would not risk it.

This is the type of hand I open in my sleep. The upsides far outweigh the downsides.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[silvr bull]

Part of my bidding philosophy is that I want to limit my hand at my earliest opportunity. Until I can limit my hand, partner will be worried about how many extras I might hold, and that concern about extras can cause partner to be too aggressive. The easiest way to limit my hand here is to pass first, and I would do so without regret. With a better but similar hand (such as Kx ATxx Q KJxxxx) that I would open, I will be happy to rebid 3C. Playing 5 card majors, the club suit is always suspect of being less than 4, so I look for opportunities to rebid a longer club suit.

[the hog]

Do we have to call each other names again? Masterminding is misdescribing your hand on purpose to get your partner to give the information you (think you) need. Certainly a signoff can never be a mastermind. I just like pass because I would like to defend 2Hx, not because I want to mislead partner or opponents.

 

And no, I don't agree that partner can have a weak hand with diamonds. Nowadays standard is 4+ spades, ~8+ points, either looking for a 4-4 fit or a hand a bit too weak for a direct (forcing) 2S bid. With a hand like Ax xx KJTxxx xxx people just pass and see what's up. This helps partner when they raise hearts.

 

He is not calling you names. He is just expressing the opinion that Pass is a very poor call - an opinion I agree with.

[gwnn]

No, he said that it is masterminding, which is just wrong. I agree that passing has downsides, maybe more than upsides, you can call it a very bad call or whatever else you feel like but it is not masterminding as you are not distorting your hand on purpose to get partner or opponents to give you more information. It is also not trying to steal declarership because we will be defending together.

[gwnn]

rhm: I meant specifically RHO's failure to raise, not his initial pass. My idea was that LHO will often have 5 for a favourable jump overcall and RHO will usually raise on 3. Your construction is nice and all but even you agree that it is not a very likely case. We have a 5-card disparity in the minor suits and you are giving partner a 2-card one in the same direction. Giving the worst-case scenario is nice for dramatic effect but does not really enlighten us. I'll see if I have time to do a few example hands (of course in this case, the parameters for LHO's WJO and RHO's pass will be crucial).

[PhantomSac]

In general, I think people pass way too seldom in this auction. That said, I think passing is a bad choice in this auction. It does depend on how wild the opps are, if they will often have a 5 card suit w/r opp a passed hand, pass has a lot more going for it (especially if they play that style but also always raise with 3!). There are opps like that for sure, if I had no read I would look at how old they are/how many conventions they played. If they will usually have 6, I think that our hand is good for 3N if partner has a hand that will bid again over 3C (and we will often beat them 100 or 300 in that spot, depending on the level of club fit), our hand is good for a club slam if partner has a stiff heart and a club fit (not that unlikely if they rate to have 6 hearts), and we rate to make a partscore if partner is passing 3C (and even if we don't they will def be in the game to make 2H X). It is not really a matter of sometimes not beating 2H X, which is possible, but I think beating them too few if we make a game or a slam is a real possibility, and if they are close to making 2H X, we have a very respectable 3C partscore to play. Sometimes hands like this happen where 3N is down in the diamond suit since clubs aren't running and they have no hearts to lead and we are crushing them since partner has 3 hearts and dummy is void, no doubt, but I think in totality passing is a bad choice.

 

In general when your hearts are headed by the ace and have no other honors I am weary of passing, it increases our offensive potential and is not as good on defense as something like KJT9 (also 4 points with the T9 of hearts). Also with a 6 card suit we will usually play a reasonable partscore or game, so passing has less upside compared to a hand like 2434 which people tend to pass less often with even though you should pass more often.

[gwnn]

Welcome back :)