neg X then new suit

[1eyedjack]

[hv=sn=1eyedjack&s=ST64HQTDAQCKJT652&wn=Robot&w=SAJ8532H82DJ873C3&nn=Robot&n=S97HA9654DK654CA8&en=Robot&e=SKQHKJ73DT92CQ974&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1C(Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20%21C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B)2S(Aggressive%20weak%20jump%20overcall%20--%206+%20%21S%3B%2010-%20HCP%3B%203+%20total%20points)D(Negative%20double%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%209+%20total%20points)P3C(4+%20%21C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P3D(4-%20%21C%3B%204+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%2011+%20total%20points)PPP&p=SKS4S8S7SQS6SAS9SJH4C9STS5D4D9DQC2C3CAC4C8C7CKD3H2H5HKHTCQC5H8D5H6H3HQD8S3D6DTDACTS2H9D2HJC6DJHAD7DKH7CJ]380|270[/hv]

 

MP, best hand South 55% robot rebate, advanced robot version 30

 

Is this a new change to the system? I expected a 6 card Diamond suit., not strong enough to bid D immediately instead of double. Could live with 5 card D suit if stuck for an alternative. Personally I think North should float 3C.

 

OK, I get that the explanation of 3D only promises 4-4 in the reds, but I just did not believe it. It did not seem credible, and the explanations don't have a great reputation for accuracy.

 

(I could have made more tricks, but I lost the will to live)

 

I note that Diana had the same sequence and converted 3D to 3H. Was that a pure guess?

 

I should have followed my instinct and opened 3C, but I was doing quite well in the tourney up to that point, so thought it best to bid down the middle.

 

 

[lycier]

1eyedjack, may I consult with you?

 

 

Whenever you report your hands,your hands diagram usually are too small.

If you use 499|350 size,I will feel happy.

 

Thanks.

[Bbradley62]

Personally I think North should float 3C.

The problem with this is that GIB thinks 3♣ only shows four of them. Humans generally think otherwise.

 

PS: Your diagrams look just fine to me. 499|350 is absurd.

[1eyedjack]

Perhaps ! should pull 3D back to 4C.

 

I did used to post bigger hand diagrams but got told off. Sorry, can't please all. Maybe a compromise?

 

 

 

[iandayre]

Certainly the 3D bid was utter nonsense. If you are not going to pass the only possible call is 3S asking for a stopper. This is a very weak area for GIB's. I have seen it negative double then bid a 4 card suit while leaving its other suit, a SEVEN carder, unbid.

[georgi]

3♣ could have several balanced hands.

 

4 lousy spades and 4324. Not good enough to pass as penalty nor 2NT with stopper

 

3334 is very likely also, still no stopper

 

(32)44 in minors. Double shows just hearts so not obvious you should rebid diamonds.

 

Slim chance for also 2245. still better to rebid 3♣ and would pass 3♦ happily.

 

So 3♦ by partner looks like offer to stop in better red suit.

 

Opener could bid 3♥ with 3 cards, so it would be still better than partner to try guessing and rebid 3♥ instead of 3♦.

 

If opener has something like 3226 that would be just bad luck.

 

In that case North-South could hope 3NT is a consolation stop.

[Bbradley62]

I note that Diana had the same sequence and converted 3D to 3H. Was that a pure guess?

Perhaps ! should pull 3D back to 4C.

Partner's 3♦ is unlimited (described as 11+), so it certainly seems that you have to consider it to be forcing.

[1eyedjack]

I was in the privileged, albeit unauthorised, position of knowing that partner was limited by my own HCP. Not that that really has any place in this discussion.

 

But description aside, I would expect an immediate bid of the suit (sans double) is strong enough to force.

 

 

 

[Bbradley62]

Touche' on the "best hand" concept. Barring that, partner could have xx, AKxx, KJxx, AQx. Per Georgi's explanation, GIB would bid as he did in hope of finding best fit for game.

[1eyedjack]

I would follow up X with 3S cue on that hand.

[1eyedjack]

How, incidentally, would the auction have proceeded had both opener's and responder's minors been reversed?

[1eyedjack]

I think that this thread still has legs.

 

In a completely different context, we are content to pass over a 1-Suit opener by opponent, when we have a balanced hand with values just short of a 1NT overcall, and lack tolerance for all the unbid suits. With such tolerance (3+ cards) we may double as we are prepared for advancer to respond in our shortest suit which we can pass in the knowledge that, while it may be less than desirable, at least the fit is playable.

 

Passing (say with an outside doubleton) is not without risk. It is not certain that advancer would have bid your doubleton, and you may have a decent fit in one of your better suits which may not come to light. Some partnerships are sufficiently concerned about this that they play artificial 1N overcalls and other oddities, but for most of us we pass and hope that partner can protect us.

 

Is that so different in principle from the hand that kicked off this thread?

 

 

Say you have 4-3-2-4 as Georgi points out is possible. Most of the time I would dredge up 2N (if not passing the double). But if choosing neither of those options I would be tempted to bid 3H on a 3 card suit opposite a known 4+, than rebid 3C on 4 having already opened 1C.

 

Georgi says that 3C is an OK bid because I can pull 3D from partner to 3H (as Diana did in the competition). But what if doubler had held 2-4-5-2 shape (or even longer Diamonds)? When evaluating a system that has you scrambling for your best misfit it behoves you to recognise that on occasion you will still end up in an inferior strain. Continuing to scramble provides little confidence of improvement of strain, while at the same time giving up on the alternative whereby a new suit could be confidently left.

 

Alternatives are:

 

(1) don't oblige a double just because you have 4 in the other major and a smalttering of points, if you cannot cope with the possibility that partner does not support that major. Partner is still in there.

 

(2) If you are going to double with a doubleton outside, just suck it up when partner happens to bid it. You MAY be in a 6 card fit, but it is far from odds on. Partner will stretch to find an alternative than to bid it on only 4. Then, when doubler removes it you are on safe and sure ground that his chosen suit is long.

[Bbradley62]

I also think North (on this hand, not some of the others being discussed) should bid 3♥ over 2♠. He doesn't because GIB doesn't count a distribution point for Ax (he adds one, the subtracts it).