pbleighton Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Playing non-relay Precision, opps silent, you hold AJxx-x-AQ10x-AQxx, and open 1C. You partner has Qxx-A10xxx-xxx-Kx, and responds 1H (5+ hearts, 8+ hcp, forcing to game). You bid 1S - normally 5 cards. 1) How does the bidding proceed, without special agreements?2) Suggestions for special agreements on 4441s?3) Precision Today mentions (without endorsing) using 2D to show strong 4441s, with 2H becoming the short diamond bid. It is nice, but doesn't seem worth giving up a weak two in hearts. What do you think of this bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Playing non-relay Precision, opps silent, you hold AJxx-x-AQ10x-AQxx, and open 1C. You partner has Qxx-A10xxx-xxx-Kx, and responds 1H (5+ hearts, 8+ hcp, forcing to game). You bid 1S - normally 5 cards. 1) How does the bidding proceed, without special agreements?2) Suggestions for special agreements on 4441s?3) Precision Today mentions (without endorsing) using 2D to show strong 4441s, with 2H becoming the short diamond bid. It is nice, but doesn't seem worth giving up a weak two in hearts. What do you think of this bid? 1)Hi pb, I think that all the modern versions of precision use some form of asking bid after a positive response. Assuming you don't have such an agreement with your pd you can just bid:1c 1h1n 3n Why "invent" a 1s rebid with 4 cards? it will be hard to blame your pd if you end up playing 4s in a 4-3 fit. 2) The only problem playing precision with 4441 hands is when the short suit is diammonds, if you play that a 1d opening shows 2+ diammonds you have to use 2d for 4-4-1-4 hands. Some players also open 2d with [4]-[3]-1-5 hands and bad clubs. 3) Weak 2's in hearts are far more frequent than strong three suiters so I wouldn't like to give up the 2h bid. Of course is only my opinion.A better option if you are obssesed with three suiters is to play 2h/2s Muirderberg style with 2d multi being an option a strong(ish) 3 suiter.2d = weak 2M or Bal 22-24 or 16-18 three suiter. Three suiters are always hard to bid in most systems, thus the "impossible negative" bid popularized by the italians and other curious treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Luis -1) "I think that all the modern versions of precision use some form of asking bid after a positive response." We do have such a response, but it wouldn't apply here. This was a simplified example - we use transfer positives, with the acceptance of the transfer being a control-ask (A=2,K=1), with subsequent asking bids available - tabs and cabs). However, it is used only by the opener in his first rebid, and when no further distributional information is required. Are you referring to another type of asking bid, when distributional information is still required - that sounds like a relay system to my inexperienced ears.2) I like your suggestion of the NT response - but then what do you do if partner assumes 2 card support, has 6, and rebids his suit - does another bid of NT communicate 4441 shape?3) I doubt Muirderberg is GCC legal, which if true disqualifies it for me. Not to worry - these hands aren't too common - but they bug me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Rebids on 4441s are always a pain playing strong club. Please note that this is one of the advantages to the relay style(You can ask rather than show with the awkward 4441s and super strong NT hands) If you aren't going to use relay, then you are going to need to do something. One option is to use a 1S rebid to show a 4 card suit rather than 5+I prefer this style. A second option is to pretent that 4441 hands don't exist and pick the most descriptive lie.In this case, like Luis I would rebid 1NT. I can see arguments for 1S or even 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Luis -2) I like your suggestion of the NT response - but then what do you do if partner assumes 2 card support, has 6, and rebids his suit - does another bid of NT communicate 4441 shape?3) I doubt Muirderberg is GCC legal, which if true disqualifies it for me. Not to worry - these hands aren't too common - but they bug me anyway. 2) If pd assumes you hace 2 card support and rebids his suit then you can bid NT again, it doesn't mean you have a 4441 shape but it does show a lot of interest in playing in NT rather than in a trump contract. 3) I'm very sure Muirderberg is GCC legal, since if a weak 2h is GCC legal then Muirderberg is too. 5+M and a weak hand (with the extra information that we always have a 4+ side suit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Muilderburg 2M openings are most assuredly NOT GCC legalNor is the multi 2D opening. The GCC is designed in such a way that any conventional bid that is not explictly permitted is banned. Muilderburg 2M is clearly conventional, in that it the 2M opening promises information about a suit other than the one opened. Muilderburg 2M is not explicitly licensed in the GCC the rest is left as an exercise for the reader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Muilderburg 2M openings are most assuredly NOT GCC legalNor is the multi 2D opening. The GCC is designed in such a way that any conventional bid that is not explictly permitted is banned. Muilderburg 2M is clearly conventional, in that it the 2M opening promises information about a suit other than the one opened. Muilderburg 2M is not explicitly licensed in the GCC the rest is left as an exercise for the reader Then GCC is for old-ladies that play bridge while drinking tea.With respect for old ladies and tea.A tournament under such a regulation cannot give masterpoints or color-points or anything since you are forced to play inferior methods just because. I assume it is to make old-ladies happy while they dring their tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted June 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Luis-1) At my club old ladies drink coffee. 2) I agree that the GCC is dreadful - especially given that the majority of experienced club players in the U.S. (at least in the Northeast) play 2/1 with a dozen conventions - nothing wrong with it but not even close to "natural" bidding. I guess the ACBL's motto is "Goren is dead, but never mind the rotting corpse - long live Goren!" This is my attitude now - I shudder to think what it will be when I've been obsessing about bidding for as long as Richard has! :D Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 So if you play precision at GCC events I'm sure you are under the glass for using satanic-yet-legal methods. :-) The regulations should try to prevent players from playing methods that requiere a prepared defense and some time to prepare counter-measures not ban bids because they are not popular. Somehow the GCC seems to be based in a mixtre of what is popular and what old ladies like to play and play against. When absurd regulations are enforced I like playing an ancient system like Colonial Acol or Roth-Stone. It has the same effect on the "stupid-field" than Moscito and other terrorist/satanic systems. They just don't know what to do agains unusual methods so they usually bid the wrong thing with exponential catastrofic result due to both players doing the wrong thing many times on the same board. Your old ladies will surely defeat mines, caffeine is a great booster for bridge players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroencottaar Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Nice to see a thread on this. I am currently learning Precision with my partner and we came across a few 4-4-4-1 hands in the opener's hand(=no impossible negative). I agree with rebidding 1NT with these hands over a positive 1-level response, but what to do over a negative? 1NT is a natural 16-18 No Trump opening now and the singleton is really a problem(1NT over positive is not necessarily a balanced hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 A very experienced Precision player at my club suggested jumping in NT - i.e 1C-1X--2NT to show these hands. Over a negative reponse, I don't know. Bidding over a negative response seems to be often murky, with a lot of interference by opps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Nice to see a thread on this. I am currently learning Precision with my partner and we came across a few 4-4-4-1 hands in the opener's hand(=no impossible negative). I agree with rebidding 1NT with these hands over a positive 1-level response, but what to do over a negative? 1NT is a natural 16-18 No Trump opening now and the singleton is really a problem(1NT over positive is not necessarily a balanced hand). Bid 1NT, is the less of evils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 A very experienced Precision player at my club suggested jumping in NT - i.e 1C-1X--2NT to show these hands. Over a negative reponse, I don't know. Bidding over a negative response seems to be often murky, with a lot of interference by opps. This seems to be a very poor approach, where are all your asking bids?Preempting your pd when your side is in a forcing game situation at the 1 level is surely a very bad idea. That's why you play precision, to have more room than the standard bidders, they are the ones jumping to 2NT, you don't have to do that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Luis writes:"This seems to be a very poor approach, where are all your asking bids?Preempting your pd when your side is in a forcing game situation at the 1 level is surely a very bad idea. That's why you play precision, to have more room than the standard bidders, they are the ones jumping to 2NT, you don't have to do that...." Yes, you are at 2NT, but your partner knows your precise distribution. A worthwhile tradeoff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Luis writes:"This seems to be a very poor approach, where are all your asking bids?Preempting your pd when your side is in a forcing game situation at the 1 level is surely a very bad idea. That's why you play precision, to have more room than the standard bidders, they are the ones jumping to 2NT, you don't have to do that...."Yes, you are at 2NT, but your partner knows your precise distribution. A worthwhile tradeoff? Not really. Because if the 1c opener will describe and responder will ask then the 1x bid is superfluous, either one hand asks and the other describes or the other way around, switching in the middle of the auction is inefficient and reverts to what relayers find bad in natural methods. Besides that 2NT seems to be too high to start investigations since opener can be 4441, 5440 and his strength is unlimited. It can work but I don't think it is a valuable treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted July 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Luis writes:"Because if the 1c opener will describe and responder will ask then the 1x bid is superfluous, either one hand asks and the other describes or the other way around, switching in the middle of the auction is inefficient and reverts to what relayers find bad in natural methods. Besides that 2NT seems to be too high to start investigations since opener can be 4441, 5440 and his strength is unlimited."1) Opener can't be 5440 - with 5440 he would show his 5 card suit.2) I am not currently playing a relay system, though we do have some asking bids. Does your response assume some sort of relay system (Symmetric, etc.) after a positive response to 1C? If it does, how would you evaluate the "jump in NT" solution in the context of largely natural bidding after a positive response to 1C? I'm interested in relay systems, but I don't think I'm quite ready for them yet. Maybe in 2004.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Luis writes:"Because if the 1c opener will describe and responder will ask then the 1x bid is superfluous, either one hand asks and the other describes or the other way around, switching in the middle of the auction is inefficient and reverts to what relayers find bad in natural methods. Besides that 2NT seems to be too high to start investigations since opener can be 4441, 5440 and his strength is unlimited."1) Opener can't be 5440 - with 5440 he would show his 5 card suit.2) I am not currently playing a relay system, though we do have some asking bids. Does your response assume some sort of relay system (Symmetric, etc.) after a positive response to 1C? If it does, how would you evaluate the "jump in NT" solution in the context of largely natural bidding after a positive response to 1C? I'm interested in relay systems, but I don't think I'm quite ready for them yet. Maybe in 2004.... 1) & 2) If you are bidding natural after a positive response to 1c then how do you know when delcarer is balanced say for example 4-2-3-4 when he is 16-18 or when he has... say 20-22 or even more? Some player should limit his hand and in natural continuations of a strong club that player is usually declarer because the positive reponses are unlimited. In that context you do need the 2nt bid and you can then use some form of checkback or similar. If you want to improve your strong club opening why don't you play super-precision asking bids after a 1c opening and positive response? They are simple, they can be powerful if used with good judgement and they are easy to learn. Maybe a simple scheme with SAB, TAB, Delta, Beta, Omega, CAB and Chinese asking bids is enough. Just chat email your pd and describe the rules such as: 1NT after 1x positive is CABIf we didn't use 1NT as CAB then any 4c bid is CABNew suit after a 1x positive is SABSupports are TABs and setup a trump suitNew suits without a trump suit are deltaNew suits after a trump is stablished are chineseetc.... The names of the asking bids are not always the same just take them as examples.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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