Lots of points; few controls

[EricK]

Playing MP Pairs, partner opens 2NT (ostensibly 20-22 HCP), and you hold ♠Q ♥T963 ♦KJ82 ♣KQ95. What's your bidding plan? eg if you are going to start with 3♣, what do you intend to do over each of partner's possible responses?

[Lord Molyb]

3♣, over the expected 3♠ or 3♦ I bid 4NT, over 3♥ I'll make whatever slam try I'm given.

[whereagles]

There are some gadgets for situations like this, like 2NT-3NT as baron or a thing I read in Klinger's 5-card stayman book called "Neill after 2NT"

 

Without that I'll bid 3♣. Plan is to look for heart fit (4NT ensues) and follow up with 4♦ + 6♣. Example:

 

2NT 3♣

3♦ 3♠ (4 hearts)

3NT 4♦

any 6♣

 

Pard now chooses the appropriate minor suit slam. If he's 4333 I'll have to live with 6NT :D

[sfi]

Can I bid 3C asking for a major and then 4C asking for a minor?

 

Knowing what our system is would help rather a lot.

[the hog]

3C followed by 3NT over 3D/S. Make a st over 3H.

[WellSpyder]

3♣, over the expected 3♠ or 3♦ I bid 4NT.

 

Without that I'll bid 3♣. Plan is to look for heart fit (4NT ensues)

 

So if partner shows a major in response to 3♣, does 4NT show a fit (RKCB?) or deny a fit (presumably invitational)? Either could be what you want, but how is partner supposed to know what you have in mind?

[helene_t]

If 2NT is 20-22 you probably need a quantitative invite over it. So Stayman followed by 4NT is quanti. To try for slam in opener's major, bid the other major, i.e.

2NT-3♣

3♥-3♠ (or 4♠ maybe?)

 

or

2NT-3♣

3♠-4♥

[whereagles]

So if partner shows a major in response to 3♣, does 4NT show a fit (RKCB?) or deny a fit (presumably invitational)? Either could be what you want, but how is partner supposed to know what you have in mind?

 

If partner happens to bid hearts, then 4NT is RKCB yes.

 

If I feel a 4NT mix-up might happen over a heart bid, I'll just play the odds and bid a straight 6♥.

[gszes]

♠Q ♥T963 ♦KJ82 ♣KQ95.

 

opposite p 20-22 we are in the 31 to 33 range with no length

(and p probably with no length if they are near max). The spade

Q is highly unlikely to be worth full value. The heart suit is

so bad we need p to have an exceptional heart suit to give us

a reasonable shot for 6. If we are to play this in slam we

would most likely be better off trying for a minor suit fit where

we at least have some stuff and do not require so much from p.

 

If available I would bid 3s MSS and if p bid 3n (none) I would pass

and over 4c or 4d I would try 4s splinter to see if p wants to play

slam or not (4n from p a sign off over 4s). W/O these tools I will

have to go via the HOG since if perchance p bids 3h I can still

splinter 3s giving us a slam try and not risking getting too high

if hearts do not break.

[Cyberyeti]

If 2NT is 20-22 you probably need a quantitative invite over it. So Stayman followed by 4NT is quanti. To try for slam in opener's major, bid the other major, i.e.

2NT-3♣

3♥-3♠ (or 4♠ maybe?)

 

or

2NT-3♣

3♠-4♥

 

We play:

 

2N-3♣-3♥-4♠ is KC (so 4N is quant), I would do this even if not playing kickback in other situations

 

2N-3♣-3♠-4♥ is a slam try agreeing spades

[PhilKing]

In England I am pretty sure the standard agreement for Stayman then 4NT is quant (sources available B-) ).

[kenrexford]

One reasonable option is 3♣ and then 5NT if partner does not have four hearts.

[gszes]

One reasonable option is 3♣ and then 5NT if partner does not have four hearts.

 

How would you know (w/o special agreement) that is different from 1n 5n which should be

grand slam quant? also what if p bids 3s would 5n now not be gsf (though I admit with

exclusion it is rarely a useful bid as gsf)?

[kenrexford]

How would you know (w/o special agreement) that is different from 1n 5n which should be

grand slam quant? also what if p bids 3s would 5n now not be gsf (though I admit with

exclusion it is rarely a useful bid as gsf)?

As you noted, GSF isn't remotely useful. Well, technically I will pay up when I get two voids and four spades. Those 9400.hands just are a bitch for me.

 

As for grand slam quantitative, which is silliness in the sequence, I am ok with that bizarre conclusion, because the minor grand is likely there if partner bids it.

[mike777]

Playing MP Pairs, partner opens 2NT (ostensibly 20-22 HCP), and you hold ♠Q ♥T963 ♦KJ82 ♣KQ95. What's your bidding plan? eg if you are going to start with 3♣, what do you intend to do over each of partner's possible responses?

 

 

3nt no problem yet

[aguahombre]

Interesting. With the toys we have, good or bad in the estimation of the World:

 

2N-3C (sort of Puppetish)

?..

 

3S (five) will elicit 4NT quant --If opener is 5s/4m we will lose the minor.

3H (five) will beget 3S (slammish for Hearts).

3D (none of the above) will probe for 4-4 heart fit via 3S, then bid 4S (minor suit probe/quant) if no heart fit.

 

For those who believe those methods suck, you are probably right. But, they accidentally seem to get it done this time.

[whereagles]

In England I am pretty sure the standard agreement for Stayman then 4NT is quant (sources available B-) ).

 

So how do people ask for aces?

 

2NT 3♣

3♥ 4♣ (nat or adv cue)

4♠ 4NT (cue for clubs, RKCB for... hearts or clubs??)

[PhilKing]

So how do people ask for aces?

 

2NT 3♣

3♥ 4♣ (nat or adv cue)

4♠ 4NT (cue for clubs, RKCB for... hearts or clubs??)

 

Over 3M the other M agrees the suit (Helene_T, post 7). 4m is just natural, 5m plus 4♠ - not 2 way.

[Zelandakh]

2N-3C (sort of Puppetish)

3D (none of the above) will probe for 4-4 heart fit via 3S, then bid 4S (minor suit probe/quant) if no heart fit.

How do you play a 4♥ rebid over 3NT? One option would be to play 4♥ as showing clubs and 4♠ as showing diamonds. You also have the direct 4M rebids over 3♦ to work with. Many seem either to leave these sequences undefined in their Puppet structures or to assign essentially identical meanings to alternative routes, neither of which is exactly optimal.

[aguahombre]

How do you play a 4♥ rebid over 3NT? One option would be to play 4♥ as showing clubs and 4♠ as showing diamonds. You also have the direct 4M rebids over 3♦ to work with. Many seem either to leave these sequences undefined in their Puppet structures or to assign essentially identical meanings to alternative routes, neither of which is exactly optimal.

We don't have the direct 4M rebids over 3♦ to work with if we hold a 4-card major and a minor-probing quant, because we would need to bid 3M first.

 

Having explored for the major and gotten to 3NT, 4H is indeed idle. In your scheme, where 4H shows clubs and 4S shows diamonds, what shows both --as in the OP case?

 

Our crude version has 4S quant with one or both 4cm, and opener's acceptances then show which minor they would accept as a slam strain (or both).

[kenrexford]

FWIW, since we are getting into theory:

 

If you start a sequence with 3♣ puppet, the best case scenario is the major you can set as trumps with a 3♠ call. So, for instance, assume simple Stayman. If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder bids 3♠ as the "other major" slam try (agreeing hearts), then the heart sequence is the best case scenario. In contrast, the spade sequence is the worst case scenario.

 

If you start with that principle, a reasonable method for dealing with 4-4-4-1 slammish hands is to make an automatic 4♠ call (2NT-P-4♠) show the 4-4-4-1 slam hand with the "worst case scenario" stiff major, waiting to bid 4♠ delayed with the "best case scenario" short major. Thus, in the simple Stayman situation, 4♠ direct as 4-1-4-4, but 4♠ delayed (2NT-3♣-3♦-4♠ or 2NT-3♣-3♠-4♠) as the best case scenario. That approach, however, has an obvious flaw, in that you would then need to transfer to spades to play in spades, losing any slam try in spades.

 

Thus, the better method is to have the immediate 4♠ show the 1-4-4-4 slam try and the delayed show the 4-1-4-4 slam try, as you avoid the 3♠ rebid problem.

 

This approach makes sense if you have Delayed Texas Transfers, where 2NT-3♣-3♦-4♦/4♥ shows a non-slammish 6-4 (showing slammish values by way of Smolen). But, what about the hands with a four-card major and diamonds? You want to bid 3♣ and then 4♦, but that is a Delayed Texas transfer. The solution for that hand is to bid 4♠ as the diamond-oriented slam try, except that this now causes a problem with the delayed 4-1-4-4 slam try.

 

So, to avoid that problem, you only use Delayed Texas for one of the majors. This again calls in the best case scenario analysis. The best case scenario for Smolen seems initially to be the 3♥ call showing spades, as this maximizes room to unwind whether Responder was slammish or not when Opener has three spades. But, the Delayed Texas issue concerns the 6-2 fit, as well. In the worst case scenario, Opener only has a two-piece holding and declines Smolen (3NT). To preserve space to show the minors, in that sequence, and still re-transfer, the best case scenario is when Responder has spades, worst case when Responder has hearts. So, it turns out that both work somewhat well for the spade-based but poorly for the heart-based. Hence, you probably need the Delayed Texas for hearts more than for spades. Assuming this, then, you have 2NT-3♣-3♦-4♦ as Delayed Texas, 4♥ as the major-DIAMOND slam try, and 4♠ as the 4-1-4-4 slam try, always going through 3♥ Smolen if 5+♠/4♥.

 

 

 

 

 

[whereagles]

Over 3M the other M agrees the suit (Helene_T, post 7). 4m is just natural, 5m plus 4♠ - not 2 way.

 

Well, that works well for puppet stayman and regular stayman after 3♠. But for

 

2NT 3♣

3♥ 3♠

 

you have to wait for opener to support spades.

 

Still, as a principle it's playable yes.

[Zelandakh]

Having explored for the major and gotten to 3NT, 4H is indeed idle. In your scheme, where 4H shows clubs and 4S shows diamonds, what shows both --as in the OP case?

 

Our crude version has 4S quant with one or both 4cm, and opener's acceptances then show which minor they would accept as a slam strain (or both).

My thinking is to use these 4M calls as Baron with hearts linked to clubs and spades linked to diamonds. This is similar to the way I used the 3M calls in the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♦ in my Stayman structure and an idea I like and use in a few other places too. So with both minors Responder would bid 4♥ to show clubs and Opener would the continue 4♠ with diamonds but not clubs.

 

The point you make about having a 4 card major here is well taken and also the reason why I use the direct 4M calls (2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 4M) to show 5-4 minor hands, nicely also locating 5-3 major fits along the way in the common (31)(54) case.

 

Ken's ideas are as always interesting but I think a little imporactical. I have played around with schemes like this a little and found that while they seem logical at the time, 12 months later the logic is not always apparent; and it is worse for partner who usually has different thought processes. Of course, some of my partners would probably say the same thing about some of the things I do like to play.

 

Also, I am surprised at the comment about no slam try after a spade transfer - do you not play 2NT - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♥ as a slam try here Ken? You can surely bid your 5-5 major hands differently. And that is the point here I think. Once you start optimising a given base structure you often end up in a situation where you have to start splitting hands in strange ways to make everything perfect. The better answer is then usually to alter the basis rather than move into the special cases.

 

In this case I think the culprit is the requirement for delayed Smolen. It is inefficient to have a bid showing 6-4 and another bid to ask about the 4 card suit and doing it this way loses the chance to use both 4m rebids to cover most of the hands with both majors. It seems more like a mix between a Puppet structure and a normal Stayman structure here. I am sure you can come back with much better wackiness in this area Ken! :P

[Zelandakh]

Well, that works well for puppet stayman and regular stayman after 3♠. But for

 

2NT 3♣

3♥ 3♠

 

you have to wait for opener to support spades.

Opener will not have 4 spades here and with 5 spades Responder would have chosen another route. So 3♠ is not needed to find a spade fit. Instead it makes to play it either as agreeing hearts or as a transfer showing 5+ clubs.

[kenrexford]

 

Ken's ideas are as always interesting but I think a little imporactical. I have played around with schemes like this a little and found that while they seem logical at the time, 12 months later the logic is not always apparent; and it is worse for partner who usually has different thought processes. Of course, some of my partners would probably say the same thing about some of the things I do like to play.

 

Also, I am surprised at the comment about no slam try after a spade transfer - do you not play 2NT - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♥ as a slam try here Ken? You can surely bid your 5-5 major hands differently. And that is the point here I think. Once you start optimising a given base structure you often end up in a situation where you have to start splitting hands in strange ways to make everything perfect. The better answer is then usually to alter the basis rather than move into the special cases.

 

In this case I think the culprit is the requirement for delayed Smolen. It is inefficient to have a bid showing 6-4 and another bid to ask about the 4 card suit and doing it this way loses the chance to use both 4m rebids to cover most of the hands with both majors. It seems more like a mix between a Puppet structure and a normal Stayman structure here. I am sure you can come back with much better wackiness in this area Ken! :P

 

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I would in fact have a slam move after a transfer. I am specifically talking about the auction that starts with 2NT and 3♣ as normal Stayman. I do not play normal Stayman, which makes this somewhat theoretical. But, if you assume normal Stayman plus Smolen, the question is whether to have a "slam option" when Responder has four hearts and longer spades.

 

I pointed out that there is a simple slam sequence usually. That is, Responder starts with 3♥ as Smolen, after which Opener can bid 3♠. Because this exists, Responder has less need for distinguishing 6♠/4♥ and slammish from 6♠/4♥ and no slam interest (but interest in the possible 4-4 heart fit), as he can go through Smolen rather than a Delayed Texas Transfer with either hand, rejecting any overtures in the weak scenario but cuebidding on with the strong scenario.

 

Then, however, there is the problem of wanting to indicate invite or non-invite with the 6-4 hands when Opener only has a two-fit. In that scenario, you have a potential problem. Of course, the "solution" is to simply bid 4♥ Texas immediately with those weak hands, despite the 4-card heart suit, which is probably right anyway (swan issues). If you actually have the "almost slam interest" hand, Smolen is probably the way to go, because you want the 3-piece raise rather than the 2-piece raise.