1D opening playing a mini-NT

[david_c]

We play Precision with a short diamond (2+). In most positions our 1NT opening shows 14-16, but we'd quite like to play a mini no-trump 1st and 2nd non-vulnerable. The question is, if we do this, and the 1♦ opening shows either diamonds or a balanced 14-15, how would this affect the responses to 1♦?

 

In particular, what strength should 1♦:1NT and 1♦:2♣ show, and what should opener rebid after 1♦:1NT with a balanced hand? Or, is it completely impossible to play natural responses here? What do people think?

[the hog]

I also play this method now. Mind you we play 4 card majors

An interesting set of responses is that used by von Arnim and Auken.

1D 1H = Natural or beginning of an invit + relay

Now as a start for you

1S = both ms

1N = flat

2C = Ds min

2D = D max

 

Over these, d bids are nnf, bids at three level are GF

 

Others over 1D

1S = nat forcing

1N = 7-11

2C = nnf

2D = 5+D, 7-10

 

Others you can probably work out for yourself

[mgoetze]

That's not exactly a short diamond opening by Precision standards. ;) Ours shows 0-12 diamonds, e.g. the classic 2=4=0=7 shape. Though that hasn't come up recently...

 

We have fared quite well with our 11-15 1NT opening denying a 4-card major. No need for Stayman, so 2C is free for a second form of invitation (can't have all invitational hands bid 2NT opposite such a wide range), and with all the balanced hands containing a 4-card major, just open 1D. The thing is to not bother too much about diamonds (or clubs, for that matter) with your 1D opener, try to find a 4-4 major fit first, and only if that fails should you start worrying about the minors. For instance, in our system, 1D-1H-2C shows 5+ clubs, but also exactly 4 spades! because we want to establish once and for all whether there is a 4-4 major suit fit.

 

It's possible to get great results with just a bit of science. Here's what we bid last week:

 

1D (11-15 nebulous) - 1H (0+ points, 4+ hearts)

2S (3=0=5=5 shape) - 6C (OK, maybe a bit more than 0 points)

 

Short and sweet, and making exactly 12 tricks. :)

[Free]

I'm not used to play some standard form of precision, but here's what I play with one of my f2f partners:

 

1♣ = 15+ any

1♦ = 10-15, no 5+M (0+♦)

1M = 10-15, 5+M

1NT = 10-12 bal, no 5M

higher openings are used for preemptive bidding

 

To be honest, theoreticly the 1♦ opening is a weak spot, but in practice it works out just fine. It's not (semi)natural at all, it's just a garbage-bid.

 

Our response scheme over 1♦ is as follows:

1♥ = 4+♥ (can have longer m) OR inv+ relay

1♠ = 4+♠, can have longer m

1NT = NF, no 4 card M, may be semi-balanced

2m = (5)6+m, NF

2M = preemptive

2NT = 55+m, no invitational values

3m = good suit, invitational for 3NT

3M = preemptive

3NT = to play

 

After 1♦-1♥ we have a full relay scheme (as after any limited opening).

[MickyB]

We play Precision with a short diamond (2+). In most positions our 1NT opening shows 14-16, but we'd quite like to play a mini no-trump 1st and 2nd non-vulnerable. The question is, if we do this, and the 1♦ opening shows either diamonds or a balanced 14-15, how would this affect the responses to 1♦?

 

In particular, what strength should 1♦:1NT and 1♦:2♣ show, and what should opener rebid after 1♦:1NT with a balanced hand? Or, is it completely impossible to play natural responses here? What do people think?

If you want something simple (which you probably don't!) then I would say whatever your NT opening,

 

1♦:1NT = to play opposite balanced range

1♦:2♣ = nat GF opposite balanced range, so usually 10+

 

The 1♦ opener is such that you should be less keen to open it on unbalanced minimums than when playing strong NT, which has the side effect that you can make 1♦:2♣ promise another bid if you so desire - then you could keep your old meanings for opener's rebid (2♦ = 5+♦, other 2 level bids deny 5♦).

[whereagles]

It is my experience that the 1D 1H relay as nat or start of inv+ sequence is one of the best ways to solve the precision nebulous diamond.

[Chamaco]

It is my experience that the 1D 1H relay as nat or start of inv+ sequence is one of the best ways to solve the precision nebulous diamond.

Could you post your full relay structure ?

 

I am particularly interested to the sequences where opener has 3 or 4H and needs to resolve whether there is H fit or not, either for:

- signing off in partscore if the relayer has really H and a weak hand

- low level slam investigation in H when the H fit is found.

 

Thanks ! :)

[whereagles]

Well, I have to be more precise. The 1D 1H relay I mentioned was used in the context of 4-card majors, strong club, where the 1D opening was..

 

1) Balanced, no major OR

2) 5+ in a minor (C or D)

 

Me and a friend designed a full scheme of responses to this particular nebulous 1D, which includes the 1D 1H "semi-relay". However the gagdetry only works for this wierd kind of 1D opening.

 

I can post the whole thing here if you want. I'm not sure it will help you much, though it might be that you can pick an idea or two out of it.

 

In any case, my experience is that the 1D 1H relay works very well after nebulous 1D openings, so it's definitely something the serious precision player should think a bit on.

[Chamaco]

In any case, my experience is that the 1D 1H relay works very well after nebulous 1D openings, so it's definitely something the serious precision player should think a bit on.

I have the Viking precision Club book where they suggest the 1H relay as "either natural or GF".

 

The idea is nice, but the developments can be cumbersome- unless one wants to use the full-relay followup to 1H (which is the VikingClub scheme).

 

For example:

 

1D:1H(nat or generic GF)

2H(natural 4+)

 

Now there is a need to:

- force game WITH 4 H

- force game with 3 card support in H

- force game with short H

- game try with 4H

- game try with 5H

 

Any EASY suggestion is most welcome (EASY = if you want to relay, the relay should last only 1 round of bidding :) ) :o

[Chamaco]

I also play this method now. Mind you we play 4 card majors

An interesting set of responses is that used by von Arnim and Auken.

1D 1H = Natural or beginning of an invit + relay

Now as a start for you

1S = both ms

1N = flat

After

1D:1H(nat or relay with good hand)

1NT

 

if responder is weak with 4H, can't you lose many 44 heart partscores ? :)

[Gerben47]

1♦ - 1♥ (natural or GF)

 

Just bid natural!

1♠ = 4♠

1N = balanced no 4M, i.e 33(43), (32)44 or 22(54) or 5m332

2♣ = minors

2♦ = 6+♦

2♥ = 4♥

 

Now after 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥

 

Now the next bid (2♠) asks for a singleton, 3m is natural and game forcing.

 

Responses to 2♠:

2NT = NO singleton

3♣ = ♣ singleton

3♦ = ♦ singleton

3♥ = ♠ singleton

 

You still have 2NT left as general game try, after which partner may sign off or bid "values" in a minor.

 

If you have a game try there is no need to tell partner if you have 4 or 5 hearts. You need to know what HE has. If you have 3-card support for partner and GF you can also use one of the tools above and then decide if 4♥ is a good idea or not.

[Chamaco]

Now after 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥

 

Now the next bid (2♠) asks for a singleton, 3m is natural and game forcing.

 

If you have 3-card support for partner and GF you can also use one of the tools above and then decide if 4♥ is a good idea or not.

That's my point:

 

when I have 3 card support as opener I need to know whether pard has a 5 bagger or NO hearts at all.

 

after

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥-?

 

Responder needs a tool to force to game without confusing his pard:

opener in the followup will NEED to know whether they are in an auction with hearts agreed or not.

 

So, responder must have asking tools but he needs to let opener know *below the 3NT level* whether hearts are agreed or not.

One reason for this is that in my pship we play SERIOUS 3NT with major fit agreed.

[the hog]

I also play this method now. Mind you we play 4 card majors

An interesting set of responses is that used by von Arnim and Auken.

1D 1H = Natural or beginning of an invit + relay

Now as a start for you

1S = both ms

1N = flat

After

1D:1H(nat or relay with good hand)

1NT

 

if responder is weak with 4H, can't you lose many 44 heart partscores ? :)

No Mauro, as we open with 4 card Majors, opener will open 1H with a weak hand not in the NT range. We only lose a 4-4 H ft if opener opens 1N and responder does not have the strength to move - same as in any system.

[Chamaco]

No Mauro, as we open with 4 card Majors, opener will open 1H with a weak hand not in the NT range. We only lose a 4-4 H ft if opener opens 1N and responder does not have the strength to move - same as in any system.

Oh ok, sorry, I was concentrated on the Precision-type nebulous diamond :)

[luke warm]

it sure seems as if the precision 1d causes a lot of trouble (same as 2c)... seems to require whole system schemes to account for it... wouldn't it be better if your 1d bid promised diamonds? playing like ron (4 card majors) or like us (1 bids show 2 suits, 5/4 or better canape), with a weak nt, solves the problem... and i really don't see a lot of downside to either way

[mgoetze]

it sure seems as if the precision 1d causes a lot of trouble (same as 2c)... seems to require whole system schemes to account for it... wouldn't it be better if your 1d bid promised diamonds?

Wouldn't it be better if we all just played Acol? Well, actually, no. :)

 

Yes you do need to spend a bit of time getting your 1D response structure straight. But you have to put effort into, say, your 1C response structure as well, so...

 

And no, it doesn't cause a lot of trouble.

[mr1303]

Yeah, maybe we should go to 4 card majors. We'll have to alter our relay structure to take this into account though. Maybe something like this:

 

1H 1NT (relay)

2C = 4 hearts only

2D + = 5+ hearts, as before.

 

If we only open 4 card majors with balanced hands then this shouldn't be too hard to impliment

 

Suggestions would be welcome for a relay structure that incorporates balanced hands here after 1H 1NT 2C 2D

 

Mark (Dave's partner)

[luke warm]

it sure seems as if the precision 1d causes a lot of trouble (same as 2c)... seems to require whole system schemes to account for it... wouldn't it be better if your 1d bid promised diamonds?

Wouldn't it be better if we all just played Acol? Well, actually, no. :)

 

Yes you do need to spend a bit of time getting your 1D response structure straight. But you have to put effort into, say, your 1C response structure as well, so...

 

And no, it doesn't cause a lot of trouble.

acol hasn't even entered the discussion... the ones for whom 1D promises 4+, who have posted so far, play a strong 1C system