double of 1N overcall

[straube]

Our 1D opening is a Precision diamond that promises no diamonds so we can't raise diamonds. Playings imps, are we better off using double to show a single-suited hand (as in DONT) or should we retain the double as penalty? Thanks

[kenrexford]

I would have selected "other." Meaning, I prefer the double here as not penalty, contextually. But, "D.O.N.T." would not be my choice. Given the two actual options, I would select penalty.

[straube]

I would have selected "other." Meaning, I prefer the double here as not penalty, contextually. But, "D.O.N.T." would not be my choice. Given the two actual options, I would select penalty.

 

How would you use it and what are your other calls?

[MickyB]

Definitely penalty. You'll often have an 11-13 NT opposite a 9+hcp responder and catching them here can be very profitable. 2♣ for the majors

[MickyB]

2♦ as ♦+major would work well here too. Edited May 19, 2014 by MickyB

[kenrexford]

How would you use it and what are your other calls?

 

It depends on exactly what hand types are possible in your 1♦ scheme. That said, if I assume a generic Nebulous Diamond, then:

 

2M = forcing, natural, 5-piece

 

2♦ = 5-5 majors, non-forcing

 

2♣ = 4-4 or greater majors, forcing one round, or one 4-card major plus longer clubs or diamonds, limited

 

X = Values, with at most one 4-card major

 

 

 

 

 

[straube]

Thanks ken. Our diamond is a weak NT, minors, 4M/6D or 3-suited. I'd want a way to play 2M with something that looks like a weak 2. Landy or Multi-Landy or something like that. Of course I've never really cared for bids that don't force but promise a 5M/4+m because I can't remember running to the minor. Curious what your reasoning is for wanting to force with a major.

[MickyB]

Thanks ken. Our diamond is a weak NT, minors, 4M/6D or 3-suited. I'd want a way to play 2M with something that looks like a weak 2. Landy or Multi-Landy or something like that. Of course I've never really cared for bids that don't force but promise a 5M/4+m because I can't remember running to the minor. Curious what your reasoning is for wanting to force with a major.

 

There's a case for playing 2D multi, 2M 5M4D. When opener is short in the major, he'll have diamonds, and will actually be able to go back to 3D with reasonable frequency. I think 2D as D+M with 2M natural is better, though.

 

I hate the idea of playing 2M as forcing here.

[straube]

There's a case for playing 2D multi, 2M 5M4D. When opener is short in the major, he'll have diamonds, and will actually be able to go back to 3D with reasonable frequency. I think 2D as D+M with 2M natural is better, though.

 

I hate the idea of playing 2M as forcing here.

 

I like that...2D as 5M/4+D

 

Thinking 2C for just majors, but I assume Ken's goes...

 

2C-

.....2D-asking longer major, no fit

..........2M-longer

..........2N-hearts and a minor

..........3C-spades and clubs

..........3D-spades and diamonds

.....2M-fit for this major

..........2S-spades and a minor

..........3m-OM and this minor

 

Or he could switch it around.

[akhare]

Our 1D opening is a Precision diamond that promises no diamonds so we can't raise diamonds. Playings imps, are we better off using double to show a single-suited hand (as in DONT) or should we retain the double as penalty? Thanks

 

It is important to state the exact parameters for the 1♦ opening. It can be weaker than than the standard Precision 1♦ opening and can often include nondescript hands with 10 HCPs, especially favourable.

 

FWIW, this is appealing to authority, but I believe that Meckwell use DONT in this situation.

[straube]

Found this old thread...

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/55818-after-they-overcall-1nt/

[kenrexford]

Thanks ken. Our diamond is a weak NT, minors, 4M/6D or 3-suited. I'd want a way to play 2M with something that looks like a weak 2. Landy or Multi-Landy or something like that. Of course I've never really cared for bids that don't force but promise a 5M/4+m because I can't remember running to the minor. Curious what your reasoning is for wanting to force with a major.

 

If I wanted a way to show a weak major holding, I would probably use my 2♣ call as one or both majors with a weak hand. But, you can't have everything. Giving up on 2♣ as negative just seems like too much for me.

 

2♦ as multi has some appeal. However, weak hands with both majors tend to have more playing strength.

 

Besides, I am somewhat governed by the idea that I usually open 1♦ as an unbalanced hand. Thus, I tend to find the weak long major hands hitting the stiff. So, a one-suited major hand that cannot force causes me great fear.

 

Partner will often be able to reopen. If he cannot, he must be weak balanced or middlish unbalanced. If middlish unbalanced, my long major usually hits his stiff. So, I end up in the same place. Going for a partscore here is not all that appealing to me, as opposed to an intelligent game search.

 

 

 

[straube]

We've used Pagan against strong NT before. This gives up on the penalty double thusly...

 

dbl-hearts and another

.....2C-p/c

..........2D-diamonds

..........2H-4S/5H

..........2S-5S/4H

2C-S/C

2D-S/D

2M-M

 

One thought would be to use the same defense for passed hand situations. A passed hand doesn't have need of the penalty double and Pagan emphasizes the majors which a passed hand needs anyway if we want to compete.

 

We could then use the same thing vs weak NT and 1D (1N)when responder isn't a passed hand

 

dbl-penalty

2C-majors

2D-5M/4+D

2M-6M (rarely 5M/4C)

[nige1]

My partners like Crowhurst (some rechristen it Multi-Landy or whatever)

• Double = PEN.
• 2♣ = ART. Staymanic. both Ms.
• 2♦ = ART. Multi. Either M.
• 2M = NAT. 5+ M. 4+ m.
• 2N = ART. Unusual. ms

 

I'm trying to persuade them to change 2M to show 4+ M, 5+ m.