Pass penalty X of 1NT or go for the vul game?

[diana_eva]

[hv=pc=n&s=SKQT832HK742D5C62&d=w&v=n&a=1N(15-17)D(penalty)P?]200|300[/hv]

 

Team match on BBO, pretty random. Unknown partner but seems decent enough. IMPs, X is penalty (no detailed agreements on what kind of hands it would include). East's pass not alerted as anything, and your EW are a random partnership as well.

 

Now what? Pass or bid?

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

 

Game is not a sure think, ..., and if partner has 15+, you will collect

at least 500, so your odds of getting 620 need to be quite good.

 

I am not letting them play 2m, in this case I will bid 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[MrAce]

Game

[the hog]

Partner makes a penalty x and I hold this hand? I pass of course.

[whereagles]

Pull to 3♠. It's not likely LHO is going to sit this, nor is it a certainty we're going to profit from the set.

[ArtK78]

It could certainly be right to pass. You might not have a game (or even a good spade fit) and 1NTx could be the best spot for you. But it is not out of the question for partner to have a balanced 16 count and the opps have 7 (or more) tricks based on a lot of minor suit cards. Or beating 1NTx may depend on partner leading a spade, and that is certainly not likely.

 

I bid 3♠. Partner should continue on to game unless he has a totally unsuitable hand.

[the hog]

It could certainly be right to pass. You might not have a game (or even a good spade fit) and 1NTx could be the best spot for you. But it is not out of the question for partner to have a balanced 16 count and the opps have 7 (or more) tricks based on a lot of minor suit cards. Or beating 1NTx may depend on partner leading a spade, and that is certainly not likely.

 

I bid 3♠. Partner should continue on to game unless he has a totally unsuitable hand.

 

 

It is out of the question for pd to hold a random bal 16 count. Oh wait, this is a Bbo pickup. Anything is possible. I still pass.

[hrothgar]

I pass.

 

Wish I could cough for a spade lead, but such are there perils of online bridge.

[helene_t]

I pass.

 

Wish I could cough for a spade lead, but such are there perils of online bridge.

Ant590 had a nice suggestion for this years BBO April Fool story: a cough button in the next version of the web interface :)

[Cyberyeti]

Pass.

 

Game is not a sure think, ..., and if partner has 15+, you will collect

at least 500, so your odds of getting 620 need to be quite good.

 

I am not letting them play 2m, in this case I will bid 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

There is no guarantee of collecting a decent penalty from 1Nx or of making 4♠, particularly as partner is not going to find the right lead against 1N, you only have an 8 count, so there is the possibility of dummy having 4 or 5 points which could be embarrassing to partner, particularly if he leads from a not great 4 card suit in a balanced hand.

 

One agreement that we find useful here is that we will never sit 2m undoubled once we've doubled 1N.

 

That said, I think bidding is probably right, Axxx, Ax, xxxx, AKx is not implausible, and is 800 out of 1N but makes 6♠ for example. I think a lot of the time it's close to a wash as it will be 500/620. Playing with a random it's not easy, I'd love to have 4♦ available as a sort of longer spades and 4 hearts type bid here, my worry is that I bid some number of spades and catch partner with x, AQJxx, KQxx, Axx or similar. 4♠ doesn't make but 4♥ does, and not clear we can get there.

[Trinidad]

Pull to 3♠. It's not likely LHO is going to sit this, nor is it a certainty we're going to profit from the set.

So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?

 

If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

 

Rik

[GBinUS]

General rule: at this vulnerability, take the likely game, 620 vs maybe 500, maybe more. At equal or favorable vul., I will defend and go for the big number.

 

BTW.. I am bidding 4S or pass. 3S is NOT an option.

[kenberg]

I think the on thing that I would not do is to bid 3♠. Assuming that all bids are honest, I know that partner has a (at least close to) minimum point count. Bidding 3♠ wouold not, to my mind, ask partner whether he fits spades. It's closer to saying that spades are trump. I don't really care about partner's spades but I need him to have a little extra. He won't have any extra. He will probably pass, even if he does hold the Jack of spade.

 

So I am not bidding 3♠. I think I go with 4♠ . Yes this could be wrong, but I think that's my choice. If I double a strong NT on a 15 or 16 count I have a decent suit that can be led w/o blowing a trick. I suppose partner will be leading something like the King of diamonds. He certainly is not going to lead a spade. I am far from certain that I will ever be scoring my spades, and if I am not then I don't think we are getting 800.

 

On hands such as this, no one knows what is going to work out best and, absent some agreements that no one I know has, there is no way to communicate well. So one person has to take the bull by the horns and do as s/he thinks best. I bid 4♠. And if instead I am the doubler and partner chooses wrong I either shut up or express my sympathy for a tough choice.

[mikeh]

There is no guarantee of collecting a decent penalty from 1Nx or of making 4♠, particularly as partner is not going to find the right lead against 1N, you only have an 8 count, so there is the possibility of dummy having 4 or 5 points which could be embarrassing to partner, particularly if he leads from a not great 4 card suit in a balanced hand.

 

One agreement that we find useful here is that we will never sit 2m undoubled once we've doubled 1N.

 

That said, I think bidding is probably right, Axxx, Ax, xxxx, AKx is not implausible, and is 800 out of 1N but makes 6♠ for example. I think a lot of the time it's close to a wash as it will be 500/620. Playing with a random it's not easy, I'd love to have 4♦ available as a sort of longer spades and 4 hearts type bid here, my worry is that I bid some number of spades and catch partner with x, AQJxx, KQxx, Axx or similar. 4♠ doesn't make but 4♥ does, and not clear we can get there.

In what universe does the deck hold enough hcp for dummy to hold 4 or 5 points?

 

Probably the same universe in which we can reach and make 6♠

 

I happen to think that doubling a strong 1N with a balanved 16 is bad bridge in the long run, but the evidence suggests that either partner disagrees or he has a long suit to lead, expecting to beat them with that suit, and it will be a minor, not a major.

[Cyberyeti]

In what universe does the deck hold enough hcp for dummy to hold 4 or 5 points?

 

Probably the same universe in which we can reach and make 6♠

 

I happen to think that doubling a strong 1N with a balanved 16 is bad bridge in the long run, but the evidence suggests that either partner disagrees or he has a long suit to lead, expecting to beat them with that suit, and it will be a minor, not a major.

 

A universe where I read the 1N as 12-14.

 

Pass is now a lot safer, and I agree with your comments about the X on a balanced hand.

 

What nobody has mentioned is the real possibility that partner has doubled this with a running minor and less points than you'd expect, now 4♠ could be grim.

[kenberg]

What nobody has mentioned is the real possibility that partner has doubled this with a running minor and less points than you'd expect, now 4♠ could be grim.

 

Although I didn't mention it, it did occur to me. I decided to hope this wasn't so.

 

I once doubled a strong NT holding a running six card spade suit and an outside Ace. After +100 or +200 whichever it was (and I hope it was +200), declarer threatened to call the director because I had doubled with out the requisite 15 highs. Dummy announced in a clear voice that he wished to be left out of any such director call.

 

I think, especially if playing with a partner who does not know your style, that if you have a running diamond suit you should bid some number of diamonds. With my spades back in the hand I just mentioned, I had decent values plus the boss suit. With running diamonds and not all that much outside of diamonds, I would expect it to be less likely that the X would be followed by three passes, and I would expect it to be more difficult to get my suit in later. So I would just bid diamonds.

 

But yes, partner might think differently.

[diana_eva]

I was the doubler and my pd had the long spade hand. She tanked for a while then bid 3♠, I raised to game and that was it. Turns out we had 11 tricks to cash defending 1NT. Looking at her hand, I think she had a tough decision there and I'd probably bid too in her place.

 

I gave the hand to GIB out of curiosity, and GIB pulled the x to 2♠.

 

Oh, and we lost 12 IMPs when the other table played 3♠x+3 LOL

 

This was the full deal:

[hv=pc=n&s=SKQT832HK742D5C62&w=S96HAQJ3DAKJ6CJ94&n=SAJH85DQ732CAKQ53&e=S754HT96DT984CT87&d=w&v=n&a=1NDP3SP4SPPP]399|300[/hv]

[whereagles]

1. So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?

2. If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

 

1. I believe in getting 1100 on this as much as on promises by Herman van Rompuy :)

 

2. Well, given that I think passing is futile, I might as well describe the hand, right?

[the hog]

So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?

 

If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

 

Rik

 

Exactly. Why not try for the big penalty. Pd should not have a random 15-16 count. If he does only have 15 or so, he should have a decent lead and passing the x will do no harm as he will have a lead. I expect pd to be able to switch to a S soon enough for me to collect quite a few S tricks. If he leads a H I am not unhappy either.

Bid x numbers of S after, (IF), they run to a minor.

 

Edit after looking at the hand - there you go, after cashing 5C and seeing my signal for a S, declarer is still going down today.<br><br>CY, where did the op say she was playing a weak NT? I would suggest that in this forum a strong NT is the norm unless otherwise is explicitly stated.<br>

[Cyberyeti]

Exactly. Why not try for the big penalty. Pd should not have a random 15-16 count. If he does only have 15 or so, he should have a decent lead and passing the x will do no harm as he will have a lead. I expect pd to be able to switch to a S soon enough for me to collect quite a few S tricks. If he leads a H I am not unhappy either.

Bid x numbers of S after, (IF), they run to a minor.

 

Edit after looking at the hand - there you go, after cashing 5C and seeing my signal for a S, declarer is still going down today.<br><br>CY, where did the op say she was playing a weak NT? I would suggest that in this forum a strong NT is the norm unless otherwise is explicitly stated.<br>

 

I already told you I misread it, I was also reading another intervention over 1N thread where it was a weak NT and got them confused.

 

TBF, do nothing other than make the opposing clubs 4-2 and you're only getting 500 although game is not then guaranteed your way.

[whereagles]

I didn't try for the big penalty because in my experience if the opening lead fails, opps may have anything from 7 to 9 tricks ready to roll. Overtricks when we might have 4S+1 is annoying lol.

 

Of course, in this case it's hard to misdefend :)

[ShirleyMqz]

In teams, the problem we're given here, I pass. If I'm wrong and I only get +500 instead of +620 it's not that big a deal, whereas if I get -100 instead of +500 it's a disaster.

 

If I'm playing matchpoints I bid 2H, transfer to spades because I play systems on over a double of 1NT - you treat the auction as if partner opened 1NT. Having transfers be on in this situation is even more useful than over a 1NT opening because you know partner is sitting over all the strength. Getting +500 instead of +620 at matchpoints will be a bad result, and it's more likely than getting +800.

[lrussell]

I smell a rodent. LH0=15-17 Partner 15-18 I have 8. They have a bunch of cards in the minors but RHO didn't run. What gives?

 

Regardless if everyone is honest RHO has nothing and I expect to make 4S about 80-90% of the time. To better that score I'm going to have to beat 1NT 4 tricks. Partner is unlikely to lead spades so might easily give up a trick on the go so +300 or +500 in 1NT-X would not be unexpected.

 

What if LHO with a legit 1NT runs to 2D with 5 of them and hits his partner with 5 diamonds as well. My partner with xx diamonds passes and RHO ups the ante with 5D. They found their sacrifice. A 4S bid would prevent this from happening.

 

To my way of thinking the safe conservative bid here at Imps is 4S. I might be passing up 800 or 1100 for 620. Que sera sera.

 

If something is rotten (which can't be ruled out), and LHO has psyched 1NT and I pass the double LHO might bid 4NT (pick a minor) or 5D. Where am I now if I pass?

[mikeh]

 

 

If something is rotten (which can't be ruled out), and LHO has psyched 1NT and I pass the double LHO might bid 4NT (pick a minor) or 5D. Where am I now if I pass?

 

I have played bridge for more than 40 years, with and against some very imaginative players. But you must play in a really wild game if you think that LHO is about to bid 4N!!!!! Wow.

[lrussell]

I have played bridge for more than 40 years, with and against some very imaginative players. But you must play in a really wild game if you think that LHO is about to bid 4N!!!!! Wow.

 

Well I'm just saying we should at least be alive to the possibility of a psyche.