Action over 1NT?

[VixTD]

From a regional green-pointed Swiss Teams:

[hv=pc=n&e=sjt54hat732dqcqj3&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1n(12-14)pp]133|200[/hv]

You're playing Asptro in which 2♣ shows hearts and another suit, 2♦ spades and another suit.

 

What would you call, and what else would you consider?

[billw55]

I'll try 2♣. Nonvul, ops are passing out 1NT, what's the worst that can happen?

 

I suppose I would consider pass, but not 2♦.

[StevenG]

2♦. I thought, playing Asptro, it was the systemic bid. Pass might be better, it isn't usually.

[mcphee]

Not a lot of information here. I assume this was 15-17 NT and I would be a bidder with 2C, H and another.

[MickyB]

1NT is 12-14, it says so in the diagram.

 

The normal way to show 4S5H in Asptro is to bid 2D, if partner bids 2H asking for your five-card suit then you pass. If you start with 2C you lose the spades completely.

[barmar]

I used to play Asptro, and my understanding was that with both majors, the anchor suit is the weaker one.

 

So if you're going to overcall, the correct bid is 2♦. The question is whether to bid over a weak NT with only 10 HCP and half of them in your short suits. That's a matter of style, and perhaps partnership agreement; I don't think it's a good idea.

 

So I would consider 2♦ and Pass, and choose Pass.

[Cyberyeti]

1NT is 12-14, it says so in the diagram.

 

The normal way to show 4S5H in Asptro is to bid 2D, if partner bids 2H asking for your five-card suit then you pass. If you start with 2C you lose the spades completely.

 

Agreed, I would always bid 2♦ without seriously considering pass.

[billw55]

I thought, playing Asptro, it was the systemic bid.

I used to play Asptro, and my understanding was that with both majors, the anchor suit is the weaker one.

 

So if you're going to overcall, the correct bid is 2♦.

Aha, learn something every day. Revising my previous post - if I knew the system, I would make the system bid. Ergo 2♦, considering pass but not 2♣.

[TMorris]

I would bid 2 ♦ and wouldn't consider anything else

[Trinidad]

I am with Barmar: having half of my points in the form of quacks in my short suits makes me pass.

 

Rik

[VixTD]

This was the full hand:

[hv=pc=n&s=skq7hkq85dkj63c84&w=s632h4da7542cak62&n=sa98hj96dt98ct975&e=sjt54hat732dqcqj3&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1n(12-14)p(see%20comment%20below)p2dp3sppp]399|300[/hv]

Before South opened, West had taken hold of and lifted some cards in the bidding box, but not withdrawn them. I was called at this point. I decided that no call had been made, and the auction should proceed with the knowledge that West has an opening bid unauthorized to East, who must be careful to avoid using this information to his advantage. I told NS to call me back at the end of play if they thought they might have been damaged, or if they were unsure.

 

EW called me back and told me the auction, and that West had made nine tricks after North led a club.

 

What do you think about this one?

[Cyberyeti]

I think EW don't know their system very well, it seems odd that W wants to play in spades opposite a potential xxxx, Axx, x, Qxxxx (add more high cards to taste but I'd rather be in clubs).

 

To me, 2♦ is automatic and I'd do it weaker than this, but that may not be to everybody's taste, and I'm sure you'll get no further illumination from th convention card as to what range 2♦ would be.

[helene_t]

I'm not sure if the info that W has an opening bid demonstrably suggest 2♦ over pass. H might well get hanged while 1NT would go down.

[barmar]

The knowledge that West has an opening hand indicates that it's EW's hand, so they should play in at least a part-score or double NS. You're not going to win any IMPs with non-vulnerable, undoubled undertricks -- if declarer can hold it to -2 you're going to lose the board.

 

So it suggests action over passing. I don't think it suggests whether you should double or show your suits, but since double is so unreasonable with that hand you would surely be ruled to be taking advantage of UI.

 

Although it looks like 1NT actually makes, so there wouldn't be any damage in that case.

[akwoo]

1) In the context of the partnership I played Asptro in, 2♦ is clear.

 

2) In the context of the partnership I played Asptro in, we had sound actions over 12-14 1N openers (not that we played against those more than once or twice in a couple of years, being in ACBL land). An AAK hand with 5431 shape and 5 in a major is worth bidding, but...

 

3) These are related; the sounder you require actions in direct seat to be, the weaker you need to allow actions in balancing seat to be.

 

4) If I were not specifically told that this partnership requires sound actions in direct seat over 12-14 1N openings, I would consider pass a logical alternative.

 

5) 3♠ is terrible, as Cyberyeti said.

[wank]

i would be very surprised if any experienced matchpoints player passed on this hand, though obviously asptro is a bad convention for hands with both majors.

[MickyB]

I think EW don't know their system very well

 

I suspect they know very well that -

 

a) 2H is a NF ask for overcaller's five-card suit

b) everything else is undiscussed

c) they don't want to play a 5-1 fit

 

Even if they have discussed 2N, playing it as an INV+ enquiry sounds quite tricky to me, you don't have enough room for 3C to show a min with clubs

[MickyB]

i would be very surprised if any experienced matchpoints player passed on this hand, though obviously asptro is a bad convention for hands with both majors.

 

It's teams

[blackshoe]

It's teams

Which means the form of scoring is probably IMPs, but it might still be match points. B-)

[MrAce]

I would bid with E hand under normal circumstances. This is my bridge judgement. I would also advice to bid with E hand to those who passes.

 

But none of these means pass is not a LA with the hand E holds. There will always be reasonable amount of people who will pass with the hand E holds. As TD I would definitely think that E had more information (UI) than others when he decided to bid where pass is hell of an option for people who has different but reasonable judgement than I do.

[jallerton]

The fact that West is more likely to hold opening values does not demonstrably suggest bidding over passing on that East hand. If anything, it suggests that West is more likely to jump the bidding to a (quite likely) non making contract if East does bid. No adjustment.

 

South would do better to spend his time asking North why he had failed to make the obvious trump lead.

[blackshoe]

Maybe a trump lead is obvious — I don't know, I haven't looked. But every time I hear that word, "obvious" I remember that it took a Nobel Laureate an hour and a half to explain to a bunch of undergraduate physics majors why a particular transition between two quantum mechanical equations was "obvious". B-)

[VixTD]

i would be very surprised if any experienced matchpoints player passed on this hand, though obviously asptro is a bad convention for hands with both majors.

Had it been matchpoint scoring I could very easily have been persuaded that passing was not a logical alternative.

 

The fact that West is more likely to hold opening values does not demonstrably suggest bidding over passing on that East hand. If anything, it suggests that West is more likely to jump the bidding to a (quite likely) non making contract if East does bid. No adjustment.

In my poll I asked players what they would bid with the East hand, and once they had answered, whether they thought bidding was suggested over passing by the knowledge that partner had an opening bid. (They were the sort of people who would know what this meant.) I wasn't convinced that it was, but the players I consulted were. I suppose it depends how likely partner is to make a jump or forcing response. I'm not quite sure why he did on the actual hand, I wondered whether it was an odd attempt to hang his own side after committing an infraction.

 

South would do better to spend his time asking North why he had failed to make the obvious trump lead.

That was so bad I considered it might be classed as a serious error, but NS were not strong players, and in any case it's not related to the infraction.

[Cyberyeti]

Is it certain that the cards lifted from the BB were 1 something rather than 2, if pard was about to open a weak 2/3♦ I certainly wouldn't want to bid. Is this partner always consistent in using the stop card and pulling it before the bid ?

[blackshoe]

That was so bad I considered it might be classed as a serious error, but NS were not strong players, and in any case it's not related to the infraction.

It is when a serious error is not related to the infraction that it may lead to the NOS losing restitution for the damage it caused.