responding to X

[eagles123]

imps - best bid for south?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa32hj93dj932ca82&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1hdp]133|200[/hv]

 

 

thanks,

 

Eagles

[wank]

i bid 1nt. it's the safest way to show my considerable values. jumping to 3d on that suit would make me feel ill and bidding 2D would suggest the perpetrator had a game bonus phobia. hopefully partner will have the good sense to cue hearts to check i've got a stop before going to 3nt if he doesn't have one. if he does have a stop himself, it will normally be better played from our hand (think lho with kqtxx of hearts and partner with ax for example). note that rho didn't raise. that increases the prospects of partner having a suitable heart holding.

:

it's common to show one's shape without reference to stops at a low level. think of the following sequence playing strong NT: 1c (1s) x (p) and your hand is xxx jxx Aqx Aqxx. your only sensible option is 1NT.

[eagles123]

thanks I did bid 1N at the table but my P said I should have bid 2D. I see the vote is pretty even at the moment so maybe we're both right :)

 

Eagles

[gszes]

I definitely have the right values and shape for 1NT but

that just seems plain misguided given the lack of a heart

stopper when the opps are known to have at least 5 of them

in one hand (and they both know it). There is a bid here which

caters nicely to this situation since we are a passed hand

 

2h

 

It should be obvious we are close to max for a passed hand but have

no other clear cut bid. partner should be able to make a decent

choice knowing we don't have too much in hearts for our failure

to bid some number of NT. In many ways I think of 2h here as a 1n bid

without a heart stopper.

 

3d is not too far off but the putrid quality of our not-so-long

diamonds scares me. At imps bidding 2d could be done with xxx xxx

xxxx xxx and our hand is sooooooooo much better than that we really

need to try something rather than a mere paltry 2d.

 

For those that feel this hand is not good enough to invite --- how much

more would you need to consider this hand invitational?? Those 2 aces

are pretty darn good for a passed hand and even the heart Jxx might

come in handy as a partial stopper for NT (we need p to show some

game interest though).

 

The other downside of the 1n response is the negative effect that might have

on the bidding if p has extra values and heart shortness. We might easily miss

a slam or 5 of a minor when p think we actually have stuff in the heart suit.

[johnu]

Using a scoring system where there are no really bad bids,

 

1NT = 10

2♠ = 6

3♦ = 6

3♠ = 6

3NT = 6

2♦ = 3

Pass = 3

Redouble = 3

1♦ = 3

[PhilKing]

There is a Bayesian inference in this type of auction that is generally overlooked - the lack of a heart raise reduces the odds that partner has a shapey minimum take-out double.

 

For my money, 1NT is miles ahead of the alternatives.

[dolph924]

Do you want to play with this partner again? Yes? Bid 3D or 2H. No? Bid 1N. 1N is felony masterminding and partner will not be amused when he raises and they cash the first five heart tricks against 3N. If you bid 2H, at least as a passed hand, it should show strength but no suit. Jumping in your longest unbid suit is the traditional way to show 9-11 points.

[johnu]

Using a scoring system where there are no really bad bids,

 

1NT = 10

2♠ = 6

3♦ = 6

3♠ = 6

3NT = 6

2♦ = 3

Pass = 3

Redouble = 3

1♦ = 3

 

Also, 2♥ = 2.9

[whereagles]

It's really a "1NT wtp" bid.

[ArtK78]

I know that on these fora the popular choice will be 1NT. But I have had very bad experiences with this sort of bid. Enough so that I choose to respond in my 4 card suit.

 

Given my values, the traditional bid is 3♦, and that is my choice. If partner is looking for 3NT, he can bid 3♥, and, in that case, I will risk 3NT. But if partner has a traditional takeout double, this hand will play better in diamonds than any other strain, and game is not out of the question.

 

Color me scared.

[helene_t]

This hand looks awfull opposite the typical 3244. If partner passes 2♦ we may well have 25 HCPs between us but even so I don't see which game we could make.

[cvcherry]

I'm a beginner but I won't choose either of the listed bids.

 

I won't choose 1NT, I think it's wrong to bid 1NT without real stopper, partner may go to hopeless 3NT.

 

Because I can't bid 1NT and must bid a suit, the ♥J has no value to me. I can say I have 9 points, jump bid is (9-11), but I think the shape is so ugly that I will downgrade the hand and think it not enough for a jump bid. So 3♦ and 2♥ are out of the question. 2♦ is a reasonable choice, but I prefer 1♠ to 2♦, because if my partnership do have enough strength and can't play 3NT, usually 4♠ is a better game contract

[Zelandakh]

3♠ = 6

3NT = 6

2♥ = 2.9

3♠ and 3NT get more than double the points of 2♥? Are we looking at the same problem? I think I would give 1NT 10, 2♥ 6 or 7, 3NT 1 and 3♠ 0.

[aguahombre]

Do you want to play with this partner again? Yes? Bid 3D or 2H. No? Bid 1N. 1N is felony masterminding and partner will not be amused when he raises and they cash the first five heart tricks against 3N. If you bid 2H, at least as a passed hand, it should show strength but no suit. Jumping in your longest unbid suit is the traditional way to show 9-11 points.

Whether I want to play with this partner again or not, I will trust her at the moment. I trust her to recognize my actual holding is a distinct possibility when RHO has not raised. If she blasts 3NT without a heart partial rather than giving a gentle probe with 2H first, then I might contemplate our future arrangement.

 

I share Art's shot at popular/stylish choices of BBF'rs in general, but disagree this time.

 

I would probably choose a responsive Double if Hearts were raised; 3D being a far-distant second choice under that pressure and not a very good choice after RHO's Pass of Pard's double.

Edited May 13, 2014 by aguahombre

[johnu]

3♠ and 3NT get more than double the points of 2♥? Are we looking at the same problem? I think I would give 1NT 10, 2♥ 6 or 7, 3NT 1 and 3♠ 0.

 

There are no truly bad bids in this rating system :P Your point is taken so I raise the score for 2♥ to 3.0, the same as 2♦. One bid is a nothing underbid, the other is an overbid without a clear direction and no guaranteed fit.

 

P.S. Additional scores

 

4NT (Blackwood) = 3

5♦ = 3

[kuhchung]

There are no truly bad bids in this rating system :P Your point is taken so I raise the score for 2♥ to 3.0, the same as 2♦. One bid is a nothing underbid, the other is an overbid without a clear direction and no guaranteed fit.

 

P.S. Additional scores

 

4NT (Blackwood) = 3

5♦ = 3

 

thanks nige1

[wank]

 

 

I won't choose 1NT, I think it's wrong to bid 1NT without real stopper, partner may go to hopeless 3NT.

 

 

 

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

[lrussell]

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

And when he does I guess it's his fault!

[aguahombre]

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

 

And when he does I guess it's his fault!

When he does, he isn't defined as a good partner for the purposes under discussion. He has failed to take into account a reasonable, practical advance to his takeout double. Of course, he would be taking the charge unless he had applied common sense or read Wank's post.

[Mbodell]

It takes a parlay for 1nt to go badly. Partner has to drive to a high level, partner has to have no help in hearts, the opponents have to figure out to lead hearts, and they have to unblock and run. That happens some times. Often times one or more of the above doesn't happen and then 1nt will be ahead. for instance, give partner the KQxx 8xx AQx KQx type hand that might bid 3nt over 1nt. Give opener something like xx AQTxx KTx Jxx and they might "know" you have the Kx or Kxx of hearts and be afraid that is your 9th trick and lead something else hoping to (on a great day) find partner to lead a heart through, and if not hope that you can't come to 9 tricks and are forced to break hearts and go down. Give partner KJxx Qx AQx KJxx and now you have a heart stop. You might need a finesse or two to make 9, but they rate to be on. Give partner a weaker hand like KQxx xxx ATx KJxx and now partner will be passing 1nt so the opponents running 5, or even 6, hearts is not fatal.

[monikrazy]

Red vs White at imps, 2D seems far and away the best bid. I'm not worried about missing game if partner can't make another move.

 

A couple of posters seem concerned that 2D doesn't convey our full values since we could bid 2D with no points but I think that is a poor argument. Partner should be able to approximate reasonable ranges from the auction and his actual hand.

 

Is the difference between an unshapely 9 points (KNR has this @8.6) and the scattering of values he would expect anyway really so large that we want to mislead partner with a bid of 1NT or 2H? (I think we should reserve 2H for hands that are more strongly convinced game is out there) For instance, If partner and opener both have 15 points, it would be reasonable for him to assume we have 5 points on average. I have no reason to doubt that my partner's double is intended as takeout until proven otherwise and no compelling reasons to bid anything other than my longest and strongest suit..

[Phil]

1N is the kind of bid that looks crazy to an intermediate, much less a newer player but is virtually automatic for someone better.

 

JLall doubled a 1♥ opening holding AQ9x Kx QJTxx JT yesterday. Think he wants to hear about honor-nothing 4th in a side minor? Don't think so.

 

Forum regulars smartly make takeout doubles on 4333 shape. 1N will play nicely opposite this dummy even if they run the heart suit at you,which is pretty dubious. A shaky 4-3 in a minor? No way!

 

Neither JLalls hand nor a 4333 would be considered a textbook TOx but here we are. A stopper less 1N makes all the sense in the world, especially in this context.

[ArtK78]

It really boils down to what your partnership expects for a takeout double.

 

If you are "old school," meaning that your takeout doubles promise shortness in the opponents' suit and support for all of the remaining suits, there is nothing wrong with bidding Kxxx in a minor in response to the takeout double. Furthermore, partner will NOT want to hear a NT response with a "stopper" of Jxx.

 

If you are doubling on virtually any 13 count to get into the auction, then 1NT on the responding hand is fine, and Kxxx of diamonds is not fine.

 

I happen to be more old school than most in these Fora, so I would not bid 1NT on the responding hand.

[aguahombre]

It really boils down to what your partnership expects for a takeout double.

 

If you are "old school," meaning that your takeout doubles promise shortness in the opponents' suit and support for all of the remaining suits, there is nothing wrong with bidding Kxxx in a minor in response to the takeout double. Furthermore, partner will NOT want to hear a NT response with a "stopper" of Jxx.

 

If you are doubling on virtually any 13 count to get into the auction, then 1NT on the responding hand is fine, and Kxxx of diamonds is not fine.

 

I happen to be more old school than most in these Fora, so I would not bid 1NT on the responding hand.

It is pretty clear I am old school. But old school which does not require the perfect 4X1 for my takeout doubles nor adhere to the 13 cards/13 points style... still young enough to notice the Diamond suit is not KXXX. My doubling partner WILL want to hear an advance which somewhat describes my holding and is a reasonable choice among flawed alternatives.

 

What it really boils down to is whether J9XX at the 3-level or J9x at the one-level is the better way to advance with a 3-3-4-3 10-count.

[ArtK78]

It is pretty clear I am old school. But old school which does not require the perfect 4X1 for my takeout doubles nor adhere to the 13 cards/13 points style... still young enough to notice the Diamond suit is not KXXX. My doubling partner WILL want to hear an advance which somewhat describes my holding and is a reasonable choice among flawed alternatives.

 

What it really boils down to is whether J9XX at the 3-level or J9x at the one-level is the better way to advance with a 3-3-4-3 10-count.

 

Yes. My mistake. When these threads get long I often rely on memory (which failed me here) rather than go back to the OP to see the hand. Still, diamonds are my long suit and I have a 10 count (only one of which appears to be wasted). My second choice is 2♦. I will not bid 1NT.