I need a new gadget after 1m 1nt

[jillybean]

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I don't want to fall into the 3nt trap but I don't have a method to force here.

[gordontd]

Is neither 2♣ nor 3♣ forcing for you?

[whereagles]

yes you do.. 3♣ is forcing. If pard can't bid 3NT or 3♥ now, your next bid is 5♦.

[jillybean]

Yes, I guess we should play any 1D 1x 3C as forcing.

 

Update: my partner says 1D 1x 3C is forcing, my mistake.

[kenberg]

I play 3♣ as absolutely one hundred percent game forcing here. I would make that bid, but of course they might take the first three tricks playing in diamonds or the first zillion tricks playing in NT. Too bad. Most likely we belong in either 3NT, 5♦ or 5♣. Or we might just possibly belong in 6, perhaps in clubs. Bidding 1NT does not promise stoppers in both majors, he had to do something with Kxx / Jxx / xx / Axxxx. If this is what he has I think he might bid 3♠ over 3♣, showing some concern about hearts, and you can sign off comfortably in 5 of one minor or the other. If his values are pretty much all in his three card majors, I imagine he will bid 3NT over 3♣.

 

Of course this might go wrong, but what doesn't?

[PhilKing]

The truth is you probably need to drop most of the gadgets you currently play and get back to basics - not having a forcing club bid here is pretty shocking.

[ggwhiz]

IMO one of the best new common agreements is that a jump shift is a 100% game force.

 

If you bid 2♣ in an auction like this partner owes you a courtesy raise (or other bid) with a decent 8 count as you may have up to 17 that couldn't game force. It works out most often even when the opener has their ratty 12 and the hand belongs to them.

[neilkaz]

Yes, I guess we should play any 1D 1x 3C as forcing.

Opener's jump shift is game forcing in standard or 2/1 systems.

[P_Marlowe]

And, even if 3C is nf, which it should not, you still could bid 4C, which should be gf,

with some SI.

 

You dont want to play 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[MrAce]

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I don't want to fall into the 3nt trap but I don't have a method to force here.

 

You asked for a new gadget, here is one I like.

 

Applies only after 1m-1NT with;

 

a-reverse hands 17+

b-1 suited long minor strong hands hands 16+

 

1m-1NT

2M=shortness. You bid your shortness instead of 4 card major with reverse hands. It is very rare you play 4M with that type of hands. Information about shortness early makes it easier for your side whether you belong to 3 NT or 5m or 6-7m.

 

You can make custom continuations over this, whether that be relay or natural. At the point where shortness is shown, you do not know yet if pd has 5-4 reverse hand or 6331 7321 6421 hand, but it is easy to find out since you are at 2 level only.

 

I also play this after 1m-2NT but this time opener does not need to have 17+. Basically with a lot of shapely hands which would accept invitation he can do it.

[jillybean]

Thanks Timo, I like this.

 

Here is the complete hand and before you all start complaining, I was North :)

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1♦ 1nt

2♠ 3♦ now it is easy.

 

So too is it after 1D 1N 3C 3D 4H* 5C, something for my partner & I to discuss.

[Cascade]

You asked for a new gadget, here is one I like.

 

Applies only after 1m-1NT with;

 

a-reverse hands 17+

b-1 suited long minor strong hands hands 16+

 

1m-1NT

2M=shortness. You bid your shortness instead of 4 card major with reverse hands. It is very rare you play 4M with that type of hands. Information about shortness early makes it easier for your side whether you belong to 3 NT or 5m or 6-7m.

 

You can make custom continuations over this, whether that be relay or natural. At the point where shortness is shown, you do not know yet if pd has 5-4 reverse hand or 6331 7321 6421 hand, but it is easy to find out since you are at 2 level only.

 

I also play this after 1m-2NT but this time opener does not need to have 17+. Basically with a lot of shapely hands which would accept invitation he can do it.

 

I also like this and play similar methods on the 1m 2NT auction.

 

There is a problem, albeit low frequency, with using 2M as shortage and that is when you are dealt a 5M6m hand.

 

Even if not playing 2M as shortage you can use 3M for this purpose.

[Fluffy]

If for some reason you find no club bid available, reversing into a major should be safe on this auction as partner won't raise. However it won't help your cause much either other than assuring partner has a heart stopper for 3NT

[helene_t]

A fake reverse may be the best solution with a 6331 shape, but with this hand it is really a wtp 3♣ bid.

 

It will still be a bit of a gample if partner's next bid is 3♦ or 3♥, though. 3NT could be right at matchpoints opposite something like xxx-QJx-xxx-Axxx but I think I will bid 4♦, giving partner a choice between 5♣ and 5♦. If partner bids 3NT I pass.

[PhilKing]

The real solution is to play 2♣ as forcing - this is almost zero cost, since if our last making spot was 2m, the chances of being passed out are negligible.

[whereagles]

The problem with forcing 2♣ is that you either agree 2♣ is always forcing (call it e.g. "gazzili") or you're gonna end up with way too many rules and exceptions.

[PhilKing]

The problem with forcing 2♣ is that you either agree 2♣ is always forcing (call it e.g. "gazzili") or you're gonna end up with way too many rules and exceptions.

 

By playing it in this spot only, the number of exceptions is one, which most people can handle.

 

3♣ is preemptive

2♣ nat f (I also include 18-20 balanced, freeing up 2NT to show a game forcing diamond one suiter without a major-suit splinter).

 

Not so tough.

[MickyB]

The real solution is to play 2♣ as forcing - this is almost zero cost

 

[pedantry]

It is almost zero-cost compared with playing it as *natural* and non-forcing, but there is a definite cost vs playing it as "extras, no convenient bid, non-forcing"

[/pedantry]

[gszes]

The real solution is to play 2♣ as forcing - this is almost zero cost, since if our last making spot was 2m, the chances of being passed out are negligible.

 

Is this true after both a 1c and a 1d opener or just after 1d? There can be a significant

loss of reevaluation (by p) if 2c becomes totally artificial --just a thought

[mikeh]

Thanks Timo, I like this.

 

Here is the complete hand and before you all start complaining, I was North :)

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1♦ 1nt

2♠ 3♦ now it is easy.

 

So too is it after 1D 1N 3C 3D 4H* 5C, something for my partner & I to discuss.

Run, don't walk, run away from this idea.

 

I am not disputing its merits, altho frankly I am unconvinced, but this is an invitation to disaster. I am willing to bet that either you or your partner (assuming you can find someone willing to play this) will forget it very early on.

 

In addition, it adds a huge amount of additional work. Where do you draw the line? Will partner remember how to distinguish the various hands? How do we set trump, and can we do so and play 3N? And on and on.

 

I strongly suspect that on one level you 'knew' that 3♣ was a forcing jumpshift, but simply forgot. If so, then why would you expect that you, or your partner, will now remember a truly unusual treatment such as Tino's?

 

If you never knew that 3♣ was a gf jumpshift, then that suggests that you will be far better served by brushing up on standard bidding, where at least there is a good chance that partner will be on the same page.

 

As it is, over 3♣, North is close to slam....it depends on the spade situation.

 

I'd bid 3!d, just to make sure we know what is trump, even tho opener won't yet have a clue about our values. He will bid 3♠. Unfortunately, we still can't drive to slam since partner hasn't promised the spade A...he is probing for 3N. I would bid 4♣, hoping to bid 4♥ over the expected 4♦ stall. Now partner will know that we LIKE our hand, since we went out of our way to avoid 3N despite having the heart A and the club A (with the heart K, and the club A, we should be bidding 3N rather than driving towards slam).

 

No gadget needed: just a better appreciation of standard bidding. Opting for gadgets to solve non-existent problems is the best possible way to destroy partnership confidence in bidding. It also makes it very difficult to become a better player, since most partners won't play this gadget, and you in the meantime have complicated your life by learning it rather than on learning what most people play.

[jillybean]

Thanks Mike, I always appreciate your contributions.

Straight to the point but always thorough in your reasoning. :)

[Zelandakh]

Opener's jump shift is game forcing in standard or 2/1 systems.

You would think ´so but I was passed only yesterday after 1♠ - 1NT; 3♥ so you never know. 3♥+3 was not a resounding IMP success. Nonetheless is clear what to do here without special agreements.

 

Thinking about Timo's agreement a little I wonder why we do not use a simple ♥->♣ and ♠->♦ translation if giving up natural 2M rebids. That is, 1♦ - 1NT; 2♥ = strong, both minors and 1♦ - 1NT; 2♠ = strong 1-suiter. I have no idea if that would work in practise but it does not seem worse on first glance.

[whereagles]

By playing it in this spot only, the number of exceptions is one, which most people can handle.

 

3♣ is preemptive

2♣ nat f (I also include 18-20 balanced, freeing up 2NT to show a game forcing diamond one suiter without a major-suit splinter).

 

Not so tough.

 

Agreed, it is not so tough. But I would never play it like that. Well, at least not until I turn professional.

 

By the way, I think "preemptive" is not a good word. "Shape-showing with a min" is probably better. (I guess that's what you intend to make of the bid.)

[PhilKing]

Is this true after both a 1c and a 1d opener or just after 1d? There can be a significant

loss of reevaluation (by p) if 2c becomes totally artificial --just a thought

 

Probably - I can't find a single instance of this auction occurring naturally in top-level bridge.

[mikeh]

You would think ´so but I was passed only yesterday after 1♠ - 1NT; 3♥ so you never know. 3♥+3 was not a resounding IMP success. Nonetheless is clear what to do here without special agreements.

 

Thinking about Timo's agreement a little I wonder why we do not use a simple ♥->♣ and ♠->♦ translation if giving up natural 2M rebids. That is, 1♦ - 1NT; 2♥ = strong, both minors and 1♦ - 1NT; 2♠ = strong 1-suiter. I have no idea if that would work in practise but it does not seem worse on first glance.

I just love the way that a poster puts something in the I/A forum and in response to some help with a completely normal auction, gets suggestions about coded responses, transposing suits, and using a 2♣ rebid as artificial, with (presumably) a relay method of clarification, or of reversing into shortness.

 

I can just see an I/A player perusing these posts and thinking wtf are these people smoking?

 

Or even worse: yes, those are great ideas, and my partner and I will adopt them tomorrow.

 

If people want to discuss esoterica, and esoterica can be fun, start a new thread elsewhere.