New suit of 4th seat is forcing or not?

[lycier]

Hi:

Today I met a special problem while I looked on Teams D20 FlightA T2 .

Its basic bidding at below:

[hv=d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1d1sp2hp?]133|100[/hv]

 

2♥ is forcing or not?

 

So I consult with my friends,some people think it is not forcing since 2♥ is a free bid,not cuebid,not raise bid.Some think it should be forcing a round.

 

Here is example hand at Teams D20 FlightA T2

 

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=pn||st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S45TH5QD478KAC6JQ%2CS689QAH37D3QC345K%2CS27JH28JD26JC289T%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%207%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7C1D%7Can%7C2%2B%3B%2010-15%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cmc%7C10%7C]499|350[/hv]

 

The result ：2♥E+2

 

Another table:

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=pn||st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S45TH5QD478KAC6JQ%2CS689QAH37D3QC345K%2CS27JH28JD26JC289T%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%207%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7C1D%7Cmb%7C1S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3D%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4H%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cmc%7C11%7C]499|350[/hv]

 

The result ：4♥E+1

 

Here is my thread at Gib robot discussin.

 

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=SQT4HA432DCKJ9652&wn=lycier&w=S962H986DQ87C8743&nn=zhu12345&n=SAK875HQ5DAJT432C&en=机器人&e=SJ3HKJT7DK965CAQT&d=e&v=o&b=14&a=1D(Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20%21D%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)2C(Two-level%20overcall%20--%205+%20%21C%3B%2010+%20HCP%3B%2011-18%20total%20points)P2S(4-%20%21C%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%209+%20total%20points)PPP&p=SJSQS2S5C2C7S7CTD2D9S4D7C5C3S8CQD3D5STD8CJC4D4CAHKHAH6H5CKC8DTS3HJH2H8HQSAH7H3S6SKD6H4S9DADKC6DQDJHTC9H9]499|350[/hv]

 

As you know,2♠ as a new suit is not forcing in the competitive auction,now there is a new problem.

For north player,how to look for ♠ fit? how to creat forcing sequences?

 

 

Now I don't know how to take next action in the two hands above,can you help me?

Many thanks.

[Mbodell]

It depends on partnership agreement. Generally I play with many people that new suits after an overcall are non-forcing constructive. Some might think a 2/1 new suit is stronger than that - but others still play non-forcing constructive except if on the 1-level where they are forcing. Some people play all these are forcing by UPH.

 

My preferred solution is transfer advances where the east hand would bid 2♦ showing hearts and west would compete the transfer if and only if they'd pass a non-forcing natural 2♥. If west bids something else it is natural and shows extras. If east bids on over the 2♥ complete it is generally natural (returning to ♠ shows a mild invite with length/features in hearts). When I play transfer advances (which are on between the cue suit, diamonds here, and one less than the overcall suit) the suits that you can't transfer to (clubs in this case) I play as F1 by UPH and NFConst by PH.

[Vampyr]

It depends on partnership agreement. Generally I play with many people that new suits after an overcall are non-forcing constructive.

 

I prefer this, but of course the cue-bid has to do extra duty in this style. I play what partner likes, which varies; this is why the vote options should include "either".

 

Some might think a 2/1 new suit is stronger than that - but others still play non-forcing constructive except if on the 1-level where they are forcing. Some people play all these are forcing by UPH.

 

Some play that 1/1 and 2/2 are forcing, while 2/1 is not.

 

I don't play transfer advances, but I think that they are the way to go.

[P_Marlowe]

NF, although as always partnership depend.

 

NF, does not mean junk / weak, a new suit would show a constr. hand,

upto inv. strength.

After a 1 level overcall, you could play a change of suit at the 1

level as forcing, which simplifies discovering 44 fits in a major,

not uncommon, similar after a 2 level overcall, a change of suit could

be played as forcing, which is also not uncommon.

 

And for simplicity / symmetric reasons, you could play change of suit as

forcing.

 

In the end your overcall style does matter.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Endymion77]

It's a rather common agreement to play 1 and 3 level bids as advancer forcing, and 2-level bids non-forcing constructive but I've seen virtually every possible configuration so you have to discuss this with partner.

[NickRW]

One solution I have seen proposed is that a cue from advancer in 4th seat can include this hand (as well as a good raise) - which helps in some situations - though it rather depends on whether it guarantees 5 or 6 cards in your suit when you reveal it. If 6 it leaves the problem of what do with a good opening hand and only a 5 carder. If 5 it leaves opener wondering whether it could be 6 and what to do with a doubleton support when the auction has got quite high already.

 

Nick

[monikrazy]

The majority of partnerships will use this bid as non-forcing. I play it as non-forcing, constructive.

[whereagles]

I have a meta-rule for this:

 

If RHO passes, it's forcing.

If RHO acts, it's constructive but not forcing.

 

Example:

 

(1♥) 1♠ (pass) 2♦ = forcing

(1♥) 1♠ (1NT) 2♦ = not forcing

 

Reasoning is that when RHO acts, odds of our side having a game on diminish.

 

In your case it would be forcing.