Fourth suit forcing hand

[el mister]

Played this hand with my wife who is getting back into the game:

[hv=pc=n&s=saq542hajd76cat95&n=s8hq64daqj92ck832&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1sp2cp3cppp]266|200[/hv]

 

MPs, playing 4 card majors and a strong NT.

 

Is S wrong to want to show the ♣ fit here, rather than bid 2♥ 4sf? We weren't sure if 3♣ showed a weaker hand than S held, that it was effectively a limit bid. Given it's been bid, is N worth another action, and should 3♥ or 3♠ be stopper asks for 3NT?

[Antrax]

S has enough points to force to game opposite a minimum opener. Thus, they can't make a non-forcing bid.

 

 

For me the auction would go:

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥(1)

2NT(2)-3♣

3♥(3)-3NT

 

2 - I have a ♥ stopper

3 - shows 3 hearts and some doubt about the stopper

 

But I play only matchpoints so we don't have intelligent ways to explore to minor-suit contracts.

[helene_t]

2♣ shows something like 11-17 points so the 3♣ bid shows that S wants to be in game opposite 17 not not opposite 11. So S shows 8-11 points although with 11 S should try to bid 2NT instead if possible as that sounds a bit more encouraging.

 

S wants to be in game but doesn't know which game. This is the situation in which you use FSF.

[diana_eva]

This was recently discussed before in another thread here. I think the error here is that South believed showing fit was very important and forgot that partner can pass - even when they have found a fit. So when South looks at his hand and KNOWS there is a game for their side, the most important thing to do is establish that they are in GF via 2♥. Showing fit can wait in this case. Also, it should be clear for both N and S what is forcing and what not. If South thought 3♣ was forcing, well - he has learned it's not.

[P_Marlowe]

3C is NF, although inv. strength, the South hand has a gf hand.

Hence you have to go via FSF.

 

You could play it the other way round, but this is non standard.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

As stated, 3c is invitational, showing about 10-11. The correct bid is 4th suit forcing.

[1eyedjack]

The undiscussed problem here is South's next bid after 4th suit if 3C is no longer available.

 

Say

 

1D...1S

2C...2H

3D...??

 

On the actual hand this will not be the auction.. North will helpfully rebid 2N over 2H, which leaves 3C by South as available to confirm the Club fit, by now in a forcing context. But at the time of bidding 4th Suit South has no guarantee that 3C will be available.

 

To a beginner faced with this potential follow-up it may appear a little trite to limit a criticism of 3C as being NF if the alternative creates other problems such as the potential of concealing a good fit or bypassing 3N to show it. (I agree that 2H is correct, btw).

 

On this auction you have three choices: 3S, 3N or 4C.

Opener has by now denied 3 card Spade support, as well as denying a Heart guard.

But he might yet have 2 Spades, in which case 4S may be the spot. This lends credence to 3S, as the 4th suit does not promise a 5th Spade.

Or North may have a little something in Hearts to make the J worth a second guard. If you rebid 3N now you have already expressed concern about Hearts and partner could yet pull it. Important to appreciate the nuance of bidding 3N via 4th suit.

 

If partner has Txx of Hearts it is important for 3N to be declared by South, and bidding 3S removes that option. I would also rather that the Spade intermediates were rather better than 542 if I were contemplating suggesting a 5-2 Spade fit.

 

I would not say the choice is at all obvious, but on balance I opt for 3N on the Hamman principle, but it would not surprise me if 5C ends up right and I am ready to take the blame.

 

 

[neilkaz]

As I have said before in this forum and I expect to say it again noting that the first thing on South's mind when North opens is that "we are playing game", when you know that you want to be in game, DON'T make any bid that PD can possibly pass below game.

[Fluffy]

When responder raises, bids NT or rebids a suit it is normally a not forcing bid, So don't do that if you have opening strenght or you risk missing game.

 

Weak and invitatioanl hands tend to show what they have, strong hands investigate and blast.

[Zelandakh]

1D...1S

2C...2H

3D...??

On this auction you have three choices: 3S, 3N or 4C.

Opener has by now denied 3 card Spade support, as well as denying a Heart guard.

But he might yet have 2 Spades, in which case 4S may be the spot. This lends credence to 3S, as the 4th suit does not promise a 5th Spade.

Can you show me a hand that would bid 3NT here that does not have 5 spades? Perhaps you can but generally that is the implied meaning for this sequence as opposed to having it show doubt (Responder was using 4SF to check back for a 5-3 spade fit).

[1eyedjack]

Can you show me a hand that would bid 3NT here that does not have 5 spades? Perhaps you can but generally that is the implied meaning for this sequence as opposed to having it show doubt (Responder was using 4SF to check back for a 5-3 spade fit).

 

Agree, it is a bit of a struggle, but how about

[hv=pc=n&s=sak74hj532daqcq85]133|100[/hv]

 

Enough for game. I would not want to be in 3NT opposite H:x, but neither would I want to be in any other game opposite H:xxx

[helene_t]

That hand would not have responded 1♠, Jack :)

[1eyedjack]

That hand would not have responded 1♠, Jack :)

 

 

Yes, point taken, Give him, Qxx of Hearts and a third Diamond. Beside which, swap the majors and respond 1H, 2C rebid by opener, 2S 4th suit, 3D by opener and you are in effectively the same position.

[BillPatch]

That hand would not have responded 1♠, Jack :)

 

I am sure that this is a lower intermediate topic, but the authorities on 2/1 and Standard on this side of the pond

recommend bypassing the weak heart suit with a good game-forcing hand. Otherwise good bidders might stretch to fit

slams with insufficient trumps.