1N relay structures

[phoenix214]

I think that you may use something like CONFIT, which is used in Heeman(Bal vs Bal). It goes through the range ask.

After the range ask response, 3♦ is a control asking bid. After this you just show your 4 card suits naturally.

It is nothing too fancy, but it would allow you to find the suit fits, bal vs bal

[glen]

It's a good idea, but I play 1N-2D, 2H-2S as GI with 5+ hearts (allowing me to find a 5/3 at the 3-level) and 1N-2D, 2H-2N as GF with 5H/4m so unless I give something up here I haven't the ability to separate GI 5 from 4 hearts.

there is a design that compresses your 2♠ and 2NT, that is:

 

2D...transfer, 5 cards

......2S-GI, artificial

......2N-GF with a minor.

...........3C-no heart fit

.................3D-short spade

.................3H-3-5-4-1

.................3S-3-5-1-4

.................3N-no shortness or not slamming

.................4C-2-6-4-1

.................4D-2-6-1-4

...........etc. with heart fit

 

becomes:

 

2D...transfer, 5 cards

......2S-GI, artificial or GF with a minor

...........2NT-no heart fit, not GF

...........3C-no heart fit, GF

.................3D-short spade

.................3H-3-5-4-1

.................3S-3-5-1-4

.................3N-no shortness or not slamming

.................4C-2-6-4-1

.................4D-2-6-1-4

...........3D-heart fit, GF

...........3H-heart fit, not GF

[straube]

I think that you may use something like CONFIT, which is used in Heeman(Bal vs Bal). It goes through the range ask.

After the range ask response, 3♦ is a control asking bid. After this you just show your 4 card suits naturally.

It is nothing too fancy, but it would allow you to find the suit fits, bal vs bal

 

Yes, this is what I do. 1N-2S, 2N/3C-3H,

 

3S-3 or 7 controls

3N-4 controls

4C-5 controls

etc-natural, 6 controls

 

It lets me stay out of slams missing 3 controls, but I don't really like it. Also, I think relay methods would be much better for determining when a grand is on.

[Kungsgeten]

We use relays after Stayman, but Stayman could also be bid on a lot of the normal Stayman hands. 2C is:

 

1. GF relay

2. Inv with 4 spades

3. Inv with 5-4 majors

4. GF with 5-4 or 5-3 or 6-4 majors

5. Inv+ with 4-4 majors

6. GF with 5-5 minors

7. Slam interest with diamonds

8. Weak, intending to pass the response

 

With invitational hands with 4 hearts we transfer to hearts and bid 2NT (we transfer to hearts and bid 2S with 5+ hearts and invitational values). With GF hands with one four card major we normally use 3C Puppet Stayman.

 

We use normal Stayman responses. After 2D we use 2S as the relay, because 2H is inv with 5-4 majors. After 2H or 2S the next bid is the relay.

 

1NT--2C; 2D--2S;

2NT = 4-4 minors or a 4333

3C = 5 clubs

3D+ = 5 diamonds

 

1NT--2C; 2H--2S;

2NT = 4-4 majors

3C = 4 clubs or 3433

3D = 4 diamonds

3H+ = 5 hearts

 

1NT--2C; 2S--2NT;

3C = 4 clubs or 4333

3D = 4 diamonds

3H+ = 5 spades

 

Theres some space left to include some semibalanced hands, for instance I've been thinking about using 2NT and higher rebids by opener as well (to show some hands with 4 spades).

[straube]

1N-2C

.....2D-no major

..........2S-GI 5+ spades

..........2N-GI

..........3m-GI

..........2H-GF relay

...............2S-4m4m

...............2N-5 clubs

...............3C-4m333

...............etc-5D

 

.....2H-4+H, not 4S

..........3C-GF relay

...............3D-5H

....................3H-asking

.........................3S-2533

..............................3N-asking

...................................4C-8

...................................4D-9

...................................etc

.........................3N-3523

.........................4C-3532, 8

.........................etc

...............3H-4C

...............3S-3433

....................3N-asking

.........................4C-8

..........................etc

...............3N-2443

...............4C-3442, 8 (i.e. base 8)

...............4D-3442, 9

...............4H-3442, 10, even hearts (i.e. zoom with 10)

 

.....2S-4S, not 4H

..........2N-GI

...............3C-asking, like for hearts

 

.....2N-4S/4H, minimum

..........3C-relays

.....3C-4S/4H, maximum

..........3D-relays

 

So this does gives up garbage stayman and gets us to the 3-level when responder has the weak club takeout hand. Seems like a lot bad has to happen for the latter to be a problem. Opinions?

 

This structure is a bit sloppy in collapsing 5422s into 4432s and 6m322s into 5m322s but I pretty much always start to get QP counts at the level of 4C if not sooner. I doubt I can place cards before a small minor slam is reached, but I ought to be able to find some grands now and then.

 

What do we think?

[newroad]

Hi All,

 

Interesting discussion. The problems is there are conflicting principles in play.

 

There is no doubt, all other things being equal, that the Balanced Hand Principle [bHP], as espoused by David Morgan in The Bridge World, has considerable merit. My strong raise and Drury methods were underpinned by it for years.

 

Also, there is "Game before Slam" [GBS]. This includes the sub consideration of not showing additional shape until invited to by partner - it can only help the oppo.

 

Additionally, there is a consideration of the merits or otherwise of Garbage Stayman, as 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ is a lot of relay estate to give up to play it (and that's not taking into account the ability to run on above 2NT in one's Stayman response if you know partner is at least invitational and you are MAX). Personally, I've never rated Garbage Stayman as worth the effort.

 

There may be more that I've missed.

 

Combining these together anecdotally, I would continue to choose not to play Garbage Stayman. Free is right at game level about BHP, but IMO certainly less so and perhaps not at all at slam level - most relay systems will do perfectly adequately or better at investigating the right slam and keeping out of the wrong ones given a free run with the 1NT opener showing exact shape then controls.

 

Very roughly, I want to be able to, opposite the 1NT opener

• Sign-off in any suit
  
• Invite in NT with a BAL hand
  
• Invite in NT with a long minor where a fitting honour in partner's hand will give play
  
• I could live without the 6+ major suit invites, but these are mildly desirable
  
• Show shape as close as possible with at least a game force and a possible tight slam if partner is fits well
  
• If we're safely in the slam zone (i.e. perhaps not guaranteed, but 4NT for example likely to be safe) to relay opener's shape exactly
  

So, I think there is merit in the original question. Playing a relay style, you want your highest shape showing step (without running on) to be 3♥, so that 3♠ or lower can be the control range ask. It therefore distills to what you want to fit into your 1NT opener (being perhaps slightly a Luddite as compared with modern trends, I prefer to keep my 5M's out of it). There's plenty of possible methods to achieve reasonable outcomes in this endeavour. Further, if your 1NT is tight enough and you're prepared to make it INV+, you can play 2♦ as your Stayman-like ask, reserving even more space for other shape showing purposes

 

As an aside, I have developed a symmetric-like relay method catering for 6m322s, 5M332's, 5422's and all the normal BAL types for a different system (in my case, 1♣ is the opening, and 1NT+ are the relay responses). If applied to 1NT 2♣, most shape types top out at 3NT with a few topping out at 3♠. If anyone is interested, please let me know.

 

Regards, Newroad

[1eyedjack]

This includes the sub consideration of not showing additional shape until invited to by partner - it can only help the oppo.

 

I used to worry about this when designing my own 1N response structure, but I hit a snag: If you wait until partner shows interest before patterning out, you don't have enough room to pattern out. Or so I found. Or at the very least you consume a lot more space than if you simply assume that partner has some interest in your shape (which will be the case a proportion of the time, just as, a proportion of the remaining time, the knowledge provided to the opponents provides them no opportunity to capitalise).

 

"it can only help oppo" is something of an overbid. It CAN help oppo, but it can also help partner.

 

Anyway a while ago (blimey, was it really nearly a decade ago?) I posted a structure that might be of interest

 

http://www.bridgebas...dpost__p__37834

 

Having since played many hundreds of hands against robots I am more sympathetic to the principle of concealment than I was before (even if it means concealment from partner), but I remain conscious of the fact that the robot world and real world are not one and the same.