Undiscussed, how do you understand this bid?

[Jinksy]

1♥ P 5♥

 

Assume you have reasonably detailed system elsewhere but have never discussed this auction (or any 'unnecessary' jump to 5M). What would you expect from responder? Does it make a difference if your 1♥ is

 

a) SAYC, 5+

b) Acol, 4+

c) Strong C (either 4+ or 5+), limited to about 15HCP

d) Fantunes, 5+ and about 15+ points

 

?

[diana_eva]

I made this bid twice in a sayc context and meant it as a preempt . This was years ago, I had beginner in profile and everyone at the table was so confused that it got passed out for a great score. Looking back, I don't know if it *should* be a preempt.

[billw55]

Please bid slam with good trumps.

 

hmm .. that is still strange for such a direct jump to 5.

[mgoetze]

It's a "new partner ask", answers are

 

7♥ = I know a person who would be a good new partner for me, and I even know one who could become your next partner.

6NT = I know a person who would be a good new partner for me, and you are gonna be dumped.

6♥ = There's a guy who could play with either of us, I hope he picks me.

Pass = *****it we are stuck with one another. :(

[steve2005]

Please bid slam with good trumps.

 

hmm .. that is still strange for such a direct jump to 5.

 

if you just want good trump you can do a forcing raise, do some cuebidding then keycard, or exclusion keycard with a void.

 

This has to be a freak hand where the opponents might preempt your auction and spoil you nice clean auction. Also should be a hand with no losers outside of trump and wants to play in 6♥ if you have A or K♥ and 7♥ with A & K ♥

 

something like

 

void Qxxxx AKQxxxx A or void Jxxxx AKQxxxxx void

 

 

I ve seen similar meanings given to direct 5 of suit openings

[Kungsgeten]

I would take it as asking for honors in hearts. Its a very distributional hand, probably with 4 card support, and lacking top honors in hearts. Perhaps something like:

 

---

Qxxx

A

AKQxxxxx

 

I hope partner will bid slam with A or K and grand with both (basically like opening 5H directly, but with a fit).

[Jinksy]

If it's asking for H honours, how would the hand differ from one that could bid 5N or EKCB?

[steve2005]

If it's asking for H honours, how would the hand differ from one that could bid 5N or EKCB?

p could have QJxxx ♥ so would pass 5♥, 5N grand slam force you would be in slam off AK♥

 

EKCB could work in some cases but what if you have 2 voids. Also EKCB pinpoints a potential sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

[whereagles]

Undiscussed bids are natural, so this is some sort of general slam try.

 

Some play that voluntary 5-level raises have the nuts (or thereabouts) outside, and request only trump assistance. Maybe pard is playing this.

[ArtK78]

The "traditional" meaning of this bid is as has been described above - a hand with all winners outside of hearts, long trump support but missing the top heart honors. Opener is to set the contract at 5♥, 6♥ or 7♥ based solely on his trump holding. The concern is that you may be off 2 trump tricks. A typical holding for responder would be Jxxxx (or perhaps Jxxxxx if playing 4 card majors).

 

Given the number of ways we now have to find out about partner's trump honors, it probably makes more sense for the jump to the 5 level to be totally preemptive. It certainly comes up more often than the grand slam try raise to the 5 level (remember, "more often" is a relative term).

 

I wouldn't lose much sleep over this.

 

By the way, (and with all due respect, whereagles), the idea that a jump from 1 to 5 is a "general slam try" is really nuts. It is a shame that there was no room to explore for slam between the one level and the five level.

[Zelandakh]

This reminds me of a vugraph hand from Townsend-Gold recorded on BBO some years back. One of them (I think Townsend) opened 2♥ and the other raised to 5. After a very long pause opener passed. When dummy appeared and it became clear that this was indeed preemptive opener remarked to partner something to the effect of "Not Josephine then". If world class players (they were England's best pair at the time) can be unsure about an auctin like this, and for my money the weak 2 auction is clearer than this one, then it is ok for the rest of us. To that end I agree with Michael, making this bid is a marionette to a new partner.

 

As for how to take it, I agree 100% with whereagles and come to the opposite conclusion. For me natural here means to play, therefore primarily preemptive. The "general slam try" hand can surely make a forcing raise followed by rebidding 5♥ if you feel you need such a call.

[Jinksy]

Interesting. I was the criminal in question, and reasoned that since we had stuff like EKCB, Jacoby, splinters, possibly Josephine or other GF bids followed by 5♥ etc that it had to be preemptive. I also figured that since after 1♥ P, 2♥, 3♥, 4♥, 6♥ and 7♥ are all to play and (except 2♥) preemptive, 5♥ would naturally fit into the pattern.

 

The 1♥ opening was a Fantunes bid, my hand as responder (favourable) was x QJxxxx QJTxx x.

[diana_eva]

Yay! I win LOL. So partner wasn't on the same page, or why did you post the question?

[ArtK78]

Making this kind of call opposite a Fantunes 1♥ opening bid is probably more dangerous than in any other system, as the 1♥ bid is unlimited. Furthermore, it is a sound opening, so there is less need for preemption.

[Jinksy]

Yay! I win LOL. So partner wasn't on the same page, or why did you post the question?

 

Nope, P took it as some kind of slam try and raised to 7 missing a cashing ace.

[Jinksy]

Making this kind of call opposite a Fantunes 1♥ opening bid is probably more dangerous than in any other system, as the 1♥ bid is unlimited. Furthermore, it is a sound opening, so there is less need for preemption.

 

I agree it's more dangerous, but so far no-one's argued that it should have a wholly different meaning in different bidding systems. I've had plenty of auctions where the opps owned the hand after a Fantunes 1♣♦♥ bid (admittedly it's quite rare after a 1♠), and looking at the offence:defence ratio of my hand this looked highly likely to be one of them.

[kenrexford]

This reminds me of an auction from years ago. I opened 2♦, which showed at least 5-5 in the majors with exactly a 5-loser hand. We counted losers, not HCP.

 

Anyway, I had QJ10-sixth in both majors, and a small stiff. This might not be GCC legal, but I did it anyway.

 

Partner's response, after a takeout double, was to tank for a long time and then leap to five of one of the majors. I of course passed, but I wondered what he had. As it turned out, he had exactly three cover cards and no possible source for a fourth cover, maybe 4-3-3-3 shape with Ace-King-King in my suits? I cannot recall the exact hand. His meaning was that we must have 11 tricks, no matter what. No more, no less. No chance of more. No chance of less. But, we knew not how much defense we had. As it turns out, thinking it through, we have no minor tricks in a minor contract and can only take as many major tricks as their combined length of shortest majors allows. I don't recall what they could make, but our result was good, if weird.

 

 

 

[whereagles]

By the way, (and with all due respect, whereagles), the idea that a jump from 1 to 5 is a "general slam try" is really nuts. It is a shame that there was no room to explore for slam between the one level and the five level.

 

No offense taken. Besides, I only said "some play".. I didn't say I agree with it, and indeed I don't :)

[johnu]

I would take it as asking for honors in hearts. Its a very distributional hand, probably with 4 card support, and lacking top honors in hearts. Perhaps something like:

 

---

Qxxx

A

AKQxxxxx

 

I hope partner will bid slam with A or K and grand with both (basically like opening 5H directly, but with a fit).

 

Agree 100%. I believe this is taught in Bridge 201 or 301 B-) With a void, key card Blackwood won't help you unless partner unexpectedly shows up with all the outstanding key cards. Exclusion Blackwood in spades would solve the problem, but how do you get there from here? You are highly unlikely to have an agreement about exclusion Blackwood if you don't know what a raise to 5♥ is supposed to be.

[diana_eva]

Agree 100%. I believe this is taught in Bridge 201 or 301 B-) With a void, key card Blackwood won't help you unless partner unexpectedly shows up with all the outstanding key cards. Exclusion Blackwood in spades would solve the problem, but how do you get there from here? You are highly unlikely to have an agreement about exclusion Blackwood if you don't know what a raise to 5♥ is supposed to be.

 

No, you got it wrong. The bid was made in partnership that had enough agreements about slam bidding, forcing bids, exclusion etc. so that opener might have figured out this was to play and not a slam try. It would be foolish to try it with a random indeed, but it wasn't the case here.

[johnu]

No, you got it wrong. The bid was made in partnership that had enough agreements about slam bidding, forcing bids, exclusion etc. so that opener might have figured out this was to play and not a slam try. It would be foolish to try it with a random indeed, but it wasn't the case here.

 

I stand by my assessment. If you haven't discussed and don't know what a jump to 5♥ is supposed to mean, I think the odds are negligible that any agreements about exclusion Blackwood were any better than:

 

Player 1: Exclusion Blackwood?

 

Player 2: Yup

 

Player 1: Check

[johnu]

Interesting. I was the criminal in question, and reasoned that since we had stuff like EKCB, Jacoby, splinters, possibly Josephine or other GF bids followed by 5♥ etc that it had to be preemptive. I also figured that since after 1♥ P, 2♥, 3♥, 4♥, 6♥ and 7♥ are all to play and (except 2♥) preemptive, 5♥ would naturally fit into the pattern.

 

The 1♥ opening was a Fantunes bid, my hand as responder (favourable) was x QJxxxx QJTxx x.

 

I don't know Fantunes, but why can't partner have enough stuff to let 4♥ but not 5♥ make or enough defense that the opponents can't make anything at the 4♠ level (or be able to bid successfully over 4♥). How would you bid exclusion Blackwood after the 1♥ start?

[Jinksy]

I don't know Fantunes, but why can't partner have enough stuff to let 4♥ but not 5♥ make or enough defense that the opponents can't make anything at the 4♠ level (or be able to bid successfully over 4♥). How would you bid exclusion Blackwood after the 1♥ start?

 

He can. It seems unlikely that he will. Whether he has enough defence is moot anyway, since if I start by bidding 4♥ I'll compete to 5 over anything except a 5♦ bid anyway.

 

1♥ P 4♠ or 5m would be EKCB.

[MrAce]

I would take it as asking for honors in hearts. Its a very distributional hand, probably with 4 card support, and lacking top honors in hearts. Perhaps something like:

 

---

Qxxx

A

AKQxxxxx

 

I hope partner will bid slam with A or K and grand with both (basically like opening 5H directly, but with a fit).

 

Isn't this hand more suitable for 1♥ - 5 NT bid? (Good old Josephine)

[ArtK78]

Isn't this hand more suitable for 1♥ - 5 NT bid? (Good old Josephine)

 

That doesn't work very well when partner holds:

 

AKQ

JTxxx

KQxx

x

 

It will keep you from bidding the grand.