Class of players

[aguahombre]

It's o.k. I could have upvoted Vampyre five times for the same contribution on one thread.

[blackshoe]

The Norwegian STOP regulation stipulates that it is the responsibility of the skip bidder to time the duration of the STOP periode (with the exception that if he indicates end of the STOP period before ten seconds have elapsed the period shall be extended for a total duration not less than ten seconds).

 

I have heard that this is different in ACBL?

It is - it is the responsibility of the LHO of the skip bidder to maintain proper tempo (including the mandated delay). In fact, it is his responsibility to do that whether the stop card is used or not. So it is not the case, here, that a player who fails to use the stop card forfeits any rights.

[Bad_Wolf]

I cannot imagine any player of any class passing out 4♥. If anything, the hesitation suggests further action other than double.

 

I don't know. I play against bad players every week and they never double me after these sorts of auctions unless they have a rare good trump holding, and not often even then. I keep being surprised when it goes float.

[Bbradley62]

Unfortunately, OP doesn't really tell us how weak or strong EW are. All we know is that both of them have under 750 ACBL masterpoints; there's a lot of variation there.

[pran]

It is. In ACBL, you must hesitate 10 seconds after a skip bid regardless of whether your RHO used the STOP card.

Yes,

and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?

 

 

What do they consider is the (main) purpose of this delay? It is 10 Seconds long - or giving LHO time to think withoout creating UI?

[ArtK78]

Yes, and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?

 

What do they consider is the (main) purpose of this delay? It is 10 Seconds long - or giving LHO time to think withoout creating UI?

It is fairly clear why the ACBL requires that there be a mandatory 10 second pause after a skip bid - to prevent UI from being passed by a quick action, and to give the player a chance to think over a skip bid without passing UI.

 

Most players can come up with their action in reasonable comfort given 10 seconds to think about it. But partner should not know that your action is so clear that it required no thought.

[blackshoe]

That the ACBL requires the LHO of the skip bidder to be responsible for the length of the required pause is IMO unfortunate, but it's the regulation we have. As to why they did it this way, I have no idea.

[barmar]

Yes,

and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?

If he actually has something difficult to think about, he doesn't need to measure the time -- the expectation is that he'll use at least 10 seconds for this. The idea of the regulation is that you should pretend to think for the same length of time even when you don't have something to think about, so partner can't tell the difference.

 

The simplistic assumption behind this is that jump bids are likely to be more surprising than other bids, and if you don't react by having to think it gives away too much UI. In reality, there are a number of other bids that probably should warrant similar treatment, e.g. cue bids, some NT bids, probably any interference in the opponents' game forcing auction.

[aguahombre]

That the ACBL requires the LHO of the skip bidder to be responsible for the length of the required pause is IMO unfortunate, but it's the regulation we have. As to why they did it this way, I have no idea.

I don't believe the situation is any better where the skip-bidder controls the length of mandatory pause. I contend that the specific 10 seconds thing is the distraction, and I think that is Pran's issue as well. There can be UI conveyed when an opponent has completed his thought process and then turns his attention to the bidder's stop card.

 

What we really want is for there to be a noticeable delay, longer than normal for that opponent, between the skip bid and the next call. When that happens, we should be content whether it is seven seconds or 13.15 seconds, and get on with our lives.

[mycroft]

If it's the skip bidder that mandates the pause, then instead of the "1..2..3.." obvious no thought, there is the "stare at the STOP card" no thought. Also, 90% of players can't judge 10 seconds, so they leave the stop card out for the requisite 4 or 5, then call the TD for hesitation if the call doesn't come out immediately after the STOP card is put away.

 

Yes, it's unfortunate, because when I *do* think, it's hard to judge how long I spent thinking and how much extra time I need to pause to be consistent. But having to worry about how long RHO thinks I should be "thinking" would be worse. But I guess I'd get used to it.

[ArtK78]

Players (and posters) seem to dwell on the 10 second aspect of the rule. The rule is really "about 10 seconds," and it should not be noticeable that the LHO of the skipbidder is counting off the time. 10 seconds just means a reasonable delay so as to give the next player an opportunity to think if he or she needs it and to not give away the fact that there is no reason to think if there is none.

[Vampyr]

If it's the skip bidder that mandates the pause, then instead of the "1..2..3.." obvious no thought, there is the "stare at the STOP card" no thought. Also, 90% of players can't judge 10 seconds, so they leave the stop card out for the requisite 4 or 5, then call the TD for hesitation if the call doesn't come out immediately after the STOP card is put away.

 

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

[ArtK78]

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

Can't do that. It reminds me of how close I am getting to 64. :)

[mycroft]

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

That's okay, following the ACBL policy (stop card, make bid, put stop card away), poor or average players will often bid while I am still holding out the stop card.

 

But my problem is if Ms. Beatle *doesn't* sing, and puts it away at 5 seconds, and I think for 8, she will swear up and down that she held for 10 seconds and it took EVEN LONGER for me to bid. I don't trust poor or average players to get that timing right, given their inability to do that when they're controlling *their* auto-pass pause.

[pran]

Am I the only person who has more important things to consider after a skip bid by my RHO than to also be responsible for seeing to it that the pause becomes approximately 10 Seconds?

 

My assertion is that a player who can comfortably use his brain to (approximately) measure out the required time really has no need for that time to select which call he will make!

[ArtK78]

Am I the only person who has more important things to consider after a skip bid by my RHO than to also be responsible for seeing to it that the pause becomes approximately 10 Seconds?

 

My assertion is that a player who can comfortably use his brain to (approximately) measure out the required time really has no need for that time to select which call he will make!

You have a responsibility not to convey UI to your partner by the speed of your action over the skip bid.

[ArtK78]

Why is it that everyone seems to think that if you pause for 11 seconds you are a criminal? It is not that precise, people.

[aguahombre]

Why is it that everyone seems to think that if you pause for 11 seconds you are a criminal?

You are wrong. Everyone knows the criminal cutoff is 13.8. I am retired law enforcement, and I know these things.

[ArtK78]

You are wrong. Everyone knows the criminal cutoff is 13.8. I am retired law enforcement, and I know these things.

I bow to your superior knowledge, o wet one.

[Lanor Fow]

I'm able to count and think at the same time (I've never tried internally singing and thinking). I'm suprised Pran is unable to. My couunting might not be 100% accurate, but it's consistent. If someone calls the director, which has nto happened to date, I would say I always couunt to ten, which my partner can back up, or (given I do it over every skip bid), opposition if they have played more than a few boards against me. If i had to think longer I plan to tell the director where I got up to in my couunting, and would be surprised if they would rule against me if I said I got to 11 or 12

[pran]

I'm able to count and think at the same time (I've never tried internally singing and thinking). I'm suprised Pran is unable to. My couunting might not be 100% accurate, but it's consistent. If someone calls the director, which has nto happened to date, I would say I always couunt to ten, which my partner can back up, or (given I do it over every skip bid), opposition if they have played more than a few boards against me. If i had to think longer I plan to tell the director where I got up to in my couunting, and would be surprised if they would rule against me if I said I got to 11 or 12

I am definitely not unable to attend to two different tasks at the same time. In fact my background as a commercial radio telegraph operator has probably made me more competent than most people in that ability. (We must continuously monitor radio traffic while doing other tasks as well.)

 

However, when I need to concentrate on a particular "problem" I prefer not having to split my attention to a different unimportant matter at the same time.

 

And I certainly do not fancy disturbing a player who is considering an important decision with such extraneous tasks as keeping track on how much of his allotted ten seconds he has left, when that can favourably be taken care of by his RHO.

[aguahombre]

And I certainly do not fancy disturbing a player who is considering an important decision with such extraneous tasks as keeping track on how much of his allotted ten seconds he has left, when that can favourably be taken care of by his RHO.

I don't understand this. Which player would you be? If the player who is doing the thinking isn't keeping track himself (ACBL), then his RHO would be. I don't fancy distracting myself or distracting the person doing the thinking.

[pran]

I don't understand this. Which player would you be? If the player who is doing the thinking isn't keeping track himself (ACBL), then his RHO would be. I don't fancy distracting myself or distracting the person doing the thinking.

 

We have no problem with this in Norway: The skip bidder is responsible for maintaining the STOP card visible approximately (at least) ten seconds or to say "STOP" followed by "Continue" after an approximate (at least) ten seconds break.

 

The player in turn to call is free to consentrate on his call withouot worrying about the duration of the timing, and he is supposed to call without further hesitation when the STOP card is retracted or "continue" is spoken (provided at least ten seconds have passed).

 

For all I know everybody here are happy with this regulation and Director calls on BIT allegations are very scarce in situations where STOP is required.

 

Which player would I be? I assume that I would be called to the table as the Director in case of any problem. And as TD it is my duty to protect the interests of all players. This includes protecting the players from being distracted unneccesarily by extraneous matters.

 

As player I am happy to obey our STOP regulation. (But I would not be happy with the ACBL STOP regulation as I now have learned it!)

[akwoo]

Factoring in memory loss, I have never seen the ACBL STOP regulation actually followed.

 

The poor player doesn't pause. This is no problem because the poor player doesn't pause for any bid.

 

The average-to-pretty-good player pauses about 5-7 seconds. This is no problem because it will take them at least 20 seconds to think about anything that actually requires serious thinking about, and at most 5-7 seconds otherwise. (Frankly speaking, I'm in this class, and I usually pause about 5-7 seconds in STOP situations.)

 

Furthermore, if you actually try to pause about 10 seconds, some opponents will fidget or otherwise visibly get annoyed. Up to their memory loss, they've never thought for 10 seconds about a bid in their whole life, and the 10 second pause seems like a whole minute to them because they're just sitting there being bored.

[gordontd]

The poor player doesn't pause. This is no problem because the poor player doesn't pause for any bid.

This is a problem because they do pause, necessarily, whenever they have a problem that requires thought.