How to bid this hand

[NicebutDim]

You pick up this hand:

♠ A K Q J

♥ A K Q 8 4

♦ K 8

♣ Q 4

Playing a natural bidding system, how do you plan to bid it?

[hrothgar]

I hate opening 2♣ with two suited hands. This time, I need to

 

1. With a prime 24 count, there is too much chance that the hand with get passed out in 1♥

2. Partner will almost certainly bid 2D waiting over my 2♣ opening. I'll be able to show hearts at the two level and then show spades.

3. If partner bids 2N or 3m, we're going to slam

 

Expected auction

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♥ - 3♣

3♠ - 4♥

 

Maybe

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♥ - 3N

4N

[billw55]

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2♣. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure what counts as a "natural bidding system" in this context. Clearly the hand should start with a forcing opening such as 2♣. After that is less clear, but basically you must decide if you are going to describe this hand as balanced (continuing with NT) or unbalanced (continuing with hearts). I would choose the latter.

 

 

Kind of dumb out of context, I agree.

 

 

 

 

[whereagles]

Agree with Richard/hrothgar, except that I'm quite comfortable with the 2♣ opener.

[NicebutDim]

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.

If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?

[ArtK78]

I meant a fairly standard 5-card major system, without too many gadgets.

If opener bids 2H over 2C, would partner expect a 6-card suit? If so, would a 2nt rebid be better?

If opener's rebid after 2♣-2♦ is 2♥, responder should assume a 5 card suit.

 

Quite frankly, the 2♥ rebid has been known to be made on 4 cards, typically with 4441 distribution.

 

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2♥.

[the hog]

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.

[NicebutDim]

2C opening and then continuations depend on partner's responses. After 2D, 2H.

 

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

[gordontd]

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

It would certainly create a problem if that weakest possible response happens to be 2♥

[wank]

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

 

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?

[Cyberyeti]

i treat my hand as a balanced game force. we will often have exactly 4 losers and i have what look like 9 winners.

 

i hear it's still possible to find a fit after showing a balanced hand, but i certainly don't want to play 4h on a 53 fit. what would i be planning to ruff in dummy, my jack of spades?

 

So you want to be in 3N opposite xxx, Jxx, Qxxxx, xx ?

 

If you bid it as balanced it's an interesting question as to whether to show it as 4-4 or 3-5 in the majors when partner enquires.

[mike777]

Suppose partner gives the weakest possible response in your system. Does this affect how you bid the hand?

 

yes...I expect I may guess 3nt over a 2h response but there are other options.

2h=deny a or k but unlimited tiny points.

[billw55]

On this particular hand, it would not be totally outrageous to rebid 2NT, but I would rebid 2♥.

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

 

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.

[NicebutDim]

That's about what I was thinking. 2NT might have more appeal if puppet is on. Although clubs could still be wide open, when 4M is making on a 7 card fit.

 

My guess is, OP had a disagreement with partner between these two choices.

 

 

At the table, the auction started

2c, 2d, 2h

At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

[hrothgar]

At the table, the auction started

2c, 2d, 2h

At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

 

I think that most players would chose to rebid 3♣ showing a second negative rather than bidding a very unilateral 4♥.

 

After 3♣, partner would pattern out by bidding 3♠ and you (probably) have a raise to 4

[ArtK78]

At the table, the auction started

2c, 2d, 2h

At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts. Staring at my 0 count with doubleton Heart, I jump to 4H. This goes down (as does 3NT) but 4S makes on a 4-4 fit. Discussions then followed on why we weren't in this making contract.

Suppose partner were 3-5-0-5 with hearts and clubs and a huge hand. What is he supposed to bid over 2♣ - 2♦? Or any 4405 hand with 5 hearts? Or, for that matter, 4531? Just because 2NT is a plausible rebid on the hand that he had doesn't mean there will not be other hands where a 2NT rebid is out of the question but his longest suit is 5 cards.

 

That is why it is wrong to jump to 4♥ on a doubleton. His 2♥ bid doesn't promise 6 for very practical reasons - it would make some hands totally unbiddable. Even holding some hands that partner MIGHT choose to rebid 2NT - say a 4-4-1-4 24 count with the ♦A (or even a lesser honor), partner might decide that a 2♥ rebid is a lesser misdescription of his hand than 2NT.

 

In other words, 4♥ might not be the best contract. Better to let partner describe his hand more fully before you leap to the 4 level.

 

By the way, if you reserve your 2♣ opener for hands that have 10 playing tricks (excluding hands where you intend to rebid some number of NT) you will be opening 1 of a suit on some extremely strong hands. I suggest that you lower your requirements somewhat. I am very conservative in my suit oriented opening 2♣ bids, and my requirement is basically a 3 loser hand by modified losing trick count - one loser for each card in a suit up to 3 reduced by each A, K and Q held in the suit (Q does not count for a doubleton, and K and Q do not count for a singleton). Having a 3 loser hand doesn't mean that I have 10 playing tricks. Qxx is only 2 losers by MLTC, but it is hardly worth one playing trick.

[billw55]

At the table, the auction started

2c, 2d, 2h

At this point opener has promised 10 playing tricks in hearts.

I am not convinced that this is true, absent a particular agreement with your partner.

[kenberg]

Read the first response, from brothgar, to see how most people think of this. If you open 1♥ there is a severe danger that partner will pass but show up with Qxx in diamonds and xxx in hearts, likely enough for ten tricks. The sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT distorts the hand too much in my opinion. Opener can have a five card major and bid that way, often does in fact, but 5-4 in the majors with one of the minors unstopped and the other minor iffy? No thanks.

 

So I, and I think most, begin 2♣-2♦-2♥.

 

Because we do this, most play responder's rebid of 3♣ as conventional, showing a weak hand. If you don't want to play this "second negative" convention after the negative 2♦-2M (it's one of the oldest in bridge except for things such as blackwood and stayman) then you have to have some other agreement that would let you get out. Maybe a raise to 3♥ is passable. Or even bidding 2♠ and then (on a different hand) 3♥ might be passable, although that sounds weird.

 

I once played against a pair where the auction went 2♣-2♦-2♥-Pass. I turned to opener and, in my most innocent voice, asked "Do you play that as a second negative?". She had to think for a while but eventually allowed that it was. I don't recommend this approach.

 

 

Incidentally, if responder really has nothing it is not quite a slam dunk that 4♠ makes, although I gather that it did. A second negative still does not show truly nothing, maybe something like 0 to 3 highs. And the 3 won't be a king. So you will likely end in game here, it's not a lock but at least spades has a decent shot.If you stop short of game that could be right on some layouts.

[Zelandakh]

At the table, the auction started

2c, 2d, 2h

Assuming that you and partner had not discussed such things as whether a second round minor is a double negative here and that your hand was something like 4234/4243, it would seem the logical thing to bid 2♠ now.

[straube]

I'd expect 2C-2D, 2H-3C, 3S-4S without prior discussion.

 

I like 2H as double negative and after 2C-2H

 

3H-nf

3S-4S/5H

4m-5H/4m

 

because you don't really need these bids for setting trump as responder has nothing to cue bid anyway.

[steve2005]

Assuming that you and partner had not discussed such things as whether a second round minor is a double negative here and that your hand was something like 4234/4243, it would seem the logical thing to bid 2♠ now.

I would like to make an unpaid advertisement for Herbert negatives instead of cheaper minor as a double negative.

 

In Herbert negative the cheapest step is used as the bust, so 2♠ over 2♥ and 2N over 2♠ this means if you have as major 2-suiter with ♣ you will be able to show it naturally.

 

If your playing 2♣ as GF except for 2N rebids it is playable to go without a double negative and it does sound like that was the situation here. I wont hazard to guess what you bid with a zero count then

 

 

 

 

[NicebutDim]

We were playing a multi 2♦, hence a 2♣ opening is reserved for very strong hands.

We had no conventional agreements for responder to show a very weak hand.

I agree that 4♥ was not a great bid by me, but didn't know how to continue.

Can I bid 2N on a 0 count? Can I bid 2♠ with 10xxx, or does this promise a longer / stronger suit?

[ArtK78]

We were playing a multi 2♦, hence a 2♣ opening is reserved for very strong hands.

We had no conventional agreements for responder to show a very weak hand.

I agree that 4♥ was not a great bid by me, but didn't know how to continue.

Can I bid 2N on a 0 count? Can I bid 2♠ with 10xxx, or does this promise a longer / stronger suit?

2NT on a zero count? I would not recommend it.

 

2♠ on Txxx? That is for you and your partner to decide.

 

You have to come up with some way to show a truly terrible responding hand. Many play a direct 2♥ response as 3 or less HCP (but not a K). Others use cheaper minor 2nd negative. Others don't bother using a second negative. The choice is yours.

[Zelandakh]

Can I bid 2N on a 0 count? Can I bid 2♠ with 10xxx, or does this promise a longer / stronger suit?

Traditionally both of these are possible, neither 2NT nor 2♠ promises extra values. It seems from reading these boards that America has moved in a different direction on this and has different standards. So you might need to talk to some better players from your club to find out what the popular local methods are. As I wrote before, with a pick up partner and no agreements I would certainly continue 2♠.