Judaism 101

[MrAce]

I had really hoped that there would be no replies to this thread.

 

+1

 

I started to believe this guy (32519) knows what he is doing and I started to give him credit for what he is trying to achieve. Because he gets what he wants each and every single time. It may not be everyone's taste but he loves this.

 

Unfortunately BBF is hopeless when it comes to avoid jumping on bait like a sea bass each time this troll (32519) sends a line in the water. I can only imagine him laughing his @$ off on the other end of the line when sees more than a dozen on each hook.

[hrothgar]

+1

 

I started to believe this guy (32519) knows what he is doing and I started to give him credit for what he is trying to achieve. Because he gets what he wants each and every single time. It may not be everyone's taste but he loves this.

 

Unfortunately BBF is hopeless when it comes to avoid jumping on bait like a sea bass each time this troll (32519) sends a line in the water. I can only imagine him laughing his @$ off on the other end of the line when sees more than a dozen on each hook.

 

The forums aren't too useful for bridge discussion any more, but at least be provide a happy home for cranks of all kind...

 

I was always opposed to creating the Watercooler.

I'd be happy to see it go gentle into that sweet night

[Antrax]

Your link is to the Ancient Mesopotamian religion, which refers to the religious beliefs and practices followed by the Sumerian and East Semitic Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Chaldeans living in Mesopotamia (a region encompassing modern Iraq, Kuwait, south east Turkey and north east Syria) that dominated the region for a period of 4,200 years from the fourth millennium BCE throughout Mesopotamia to approximately the 10th century CE in Assyria.

 

Do yourself a favour and click on all the sub-links in the article to get a fuller understanding of who all these people were. Take note of how many times reference is made to the Jews as well. Then get out your Jewish Bible and start reading the five books of Moses. Take note of how many of these people appear in those five books. Take note also that some of them are actually distant relatives of yours (via Esau). Take note of how, even after receiving the Torah and repeated promises to obey it, rebellion soon followed when you guys started interacting with these nations. Once you have done that come and tell me which son of Isaac, Jacob or Esau, influenced the religion of the other.

 

Yet this religion disappeared in the 10th century CE (after being around for 4,200 years), swallowed up by Syriac Christianity. Your link confirms my statement in this post that it is unavoidable that every other religion will eventually be swallowed up into Messianic Judaism.

Thanks for the synopsis. That being said, religion, pre-dates Jews, has creation myth. gg.

[32519]

Thanks for the synopsis. That being said, religion, pre-dates Jews, has creation myth. gg.

You are the first Jew I have encountered to pass your religion off as a Myth. How many of your fellow countrymen share your view?

 

To your credit, your scribes, the guys tasked to ensure not only the preservation thereof, but also the accuracy of your scriptures, never incorporated any of these pagan beliefs into your own scriptures.

When both Christianity and Islam turned to your God, to your beliefs, and adopted your scriptures, neither had the discipline nor the will to retain your scriptures without corrupting them (read, adding their own flavour to them). A classic example here is that both Christianity and Islam introduced a fictitious character called satan into the text. This fictitious character appears at least 18 times in the Old Testament of every English translation of the Bible, a fictitious character that does not appear at all in the Hebrew text.

 

The point I am trying to make is that a new religion copied and then altered, deviates from the true religion, and is therefore no longer true or accurate. The Orthodox Jewish Bible’s translation of the New Covenant reads 100% better than every English translation I have ever encountered (I have a copy, despite ArtK78’s vehement protestations to the contrary). Unfortunately this translation still contains some of the known corruptions of the New Covenant. As soon as, between the Vatican and the most revered Jewish rabbi’s, the uncorrupted books and letters enter the public domain, accompanied by an accurate translation thereof, an unprecedented revival will start sweeping across the globe. When the dust settles Messianic Judaism will be the religion everyone will be following.

[32519]

Mikeh: I am still waiting for you to post a link here to every religion older than Judaism claiming that their God created the universe and everything in it. So far we have had an attempt by the following –

1. Hrothgar

2. Cyberyeti

3. Antrax

 

Anyone following this thread is welcome to come and bail mikeh out. Just state whether –

a) you are bailing him out, or whether

b) it is your own attempt.

[gwnn]

As far as I can see, you are like a carnival game that refuses to give the promised teddy bear to the participants, no matter how well they hit the target. What is worse, you are putting the winners on a "loser list," shamed periodically. Is it any wonder that people are losing interest in your business?

[hrothgar]

As far as I can see, you are like a carnival game that refuses to give the promised teddy bear to the participants, no matter how well they hit the target. What is worse, you are putting the winners on a "loser list," shamed periodically. Is it any wonder that people are losing interest in your business?

 

Why would anything that 32519 does surprise you?

 

In a previous thread he promised to leave the forums forever.

He was back in about three days.

 

He's an inveterate liar, a miserable ambassador for his religion, and almost certainly mentally unbalanced.

 

On any decent forum, the moderators would have tossed his ass out on the sidewalk.

 

Sadly, ours don't seem to place much value on sparing the community this kind of unending swill.

[gwnn]

Why would anything that 32519 does surprise you?

 

In a previous thread he promised to leave the forums forever.

He was back in about three days.

 

He's an inveterate liar, a miserable ambassador for his religion, and almost certainly mentally unbalanced.

 

On any decent forum, the moderators would have tossed his ass out on the sidewalk.

 

Sadly, ours don't seem to place much value on sparing the community this kind of unending swill.

Oh, for sure I was not surprised by his behaviour. For some reason it is still fun to point it out, not sure why. I definitely didn't want to reply to this thread but I joined in after 30 posts, thinking it can do no major harm.

[ArtK78]

The Orthodox Jewish Bible's translation of the New Covenant reads 100% better than every English translation I have ever encountered (I have a copy, despite ArtK78's vehement protestations to the contrary).

The assertion that there is an Orthodox Jewish Bible's translation of the New Covenant is the single most stupid comment I have ever seen in print.

[gwnn]

The assertion that there is an Orthodox Jewish Bible's translation of the New Covenant is the single most stupid comment I have ever seen in print.

Actually there is a 2002 translation with that name:

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Orthodox-Jewish-Bible-OJB/

 

(the New Testament starts at Markos 1)

 

It's quite unreadable for me but I don't speak Yiddish...

 

Mark 1:8 reads

8 I give you a tevilah in a mikveh mayim, but he [Moshiach] will give you a tevilah in the Ruach Hakodesh.

[ArtK78]

Actually there is a 2002 translation with that name:

 

http://www.biblegate...wish-Bible-OJB/

 

(the New Testament starts at Markos 1)

 

It's quite unreadable for me but I don't speak Yiddish...

 

Mark 1:8 reads

 

 

OK - I grant you that there is a publication with that name. But that has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism and anyone who thinks it does is naive to the nth degree (I won't deal with stupid here - let naive suffice).

 

It is sort of like Jews for Jesus. Anyone who thinks that one can be Jewish and at the same time accept Jesus as one's savior is fooling only oneself. Acceptance of Jesus as one's savior and being Jewish are mutually exclusive (and I don't care what the numbered one thinks about this).

 

Here is the Wikipedia entry for Philip Goble, the author of this great work:

Philip E. Goble (born Oakland City, Indiana, 1943) is an American Messianic Jewish author.^[1]

Goble started his career as an actor in TV commercials.^[2] Later studied at Fuller Theological Seminary^[3] and was associate pastor at the Beth Emanuel congregation in Encino, California, led by pastor Ray Gannon of the Assemblies of God.^[4] He is founder and president of Artists for Israel International, New York.^[5][6] In 2002 he published The Orthodox Jewish Bible - an English-language paraphrase of other English-language Bible translations which applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to create a "Messianic Bible." This hosted on Biblegateway.com alongside both mainstream translations and paraphrases such as GOD'S WORD and The Message.^[7]

 

 

Also from Wikipedia, taken from the entry on Messianic Judaism, is the following:

 

Some adherents of Messianic Judaism are ethnically Jewish,^[2][21] and many of them argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.^[29] Jewish organizations, and the Supreme Court of Israel in cases related to the Law of Return, have rejected this claim, and instead consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.

 

Trust me on this one - no learned Jew would consider this work to be anything but another version of the New Testament (and Old Testament) and it would have no relationship whatsoever to mainstream Judaism, let alone Orthodox Judaism. In fact, the name "The Orthodox Jewish Bible" is a shanda. (Look it up).

[gwnn]

You don't need to grant me anything. I also think it is an absurd title and I was also shocked that this publication exists. I have no idea how anyone can think it is better than the King James translation.

[ArtK78]

You don't need to grant me anything. I also think it is an absurd title and I was also shocked that this publication exists. I have no idea how anyone can think it is better than the King James translation.

I was not addressing you in my references to naivite and stupid. I think you for bringing my attention to the existence of this, THING. I find it hard to even grant it the dignity of being a publication, as it is an affront to Judaism.

 

If Israel were to have a book burning party (and that is not likley to happen, although the Orthodox might) I suspect that this THING would be on the list.

[32519]

Help me to gain a better understanding of current Jewish structures and practices. During the 2nd temple period the hierarchy looked like this –

1. High Priest

2. Chief Priest

3. Priest

4. Levite

 

This hierarchy became obsolete when the Romans destroyed the temple. What does the hierarchy look like today in your synagogues?

1. Rabbi (I understand that individual synagogues hire the rabbi)

2. ?

3. ?

4. ?

 

Where do the Levites of today fit in? What role do they currently play?

[Vampyr]

Help me to gain a better understanding of current Jewish structures and practices. During the 2nd temple period the hierarchy looked like this –

1. High Priest

2. Chief Priest

3. Priest

4. Levite

 

This hierarchy became obsolete when the Romans destroyed the temple. What does the hierarchy look like today in your synagogues?

1. Rabbi (I understand that individual synagogues hire the rabbi)

2. ?

3. ?

4. ?

 

Where do the Levites of today fit in? What role do they currently play?

 

Why not ask these questions (and indeed start threads like this) on a bulletin board devoted to the subject?

[MrAce]

Simple.

 

Every fisherman has a "most favorite" spot.

[kenberg]

I cannot imagine myself voicing an opinion on who does or does not qualify as Jewish. Culturally, I regard myself as a Protestant (if I must be regarded as something) but I also have no intention of saying who is a Christian and who is not.

 

The rock bottom problem with this thread is evident in its title. What sort of person starts a thread entitled Judaism 101? It is condescending and insulting, and that's just for openers. Of course things do not go well after that beginning.

 

A few days back I had a discussion with a woman who is somewhat, but not a lot, younger than my 75 years. She was brought up as a Catholic, has not continued in that faith as an adult, and now is doing some further thinking. She was interested in my own upbringing as a Presbyterian, my adult rejection of religion, and my current thoughts on the matter. It was a fine and enjoyable discussion with no hint of trying to ram any beliefs down anyone's throat. This can happen. It all depends on intent.

 

Mr.Ace is of course correct in that we are all being played here.

[ArtK78]

I cannot imagine myself voicing an opinion on who is or who is not Jewish. Culturally, I regard myself as a Protestant (if I must be regarded as something) but I also have no intention of saying who is a Christian and who is not.

 

The rock bottom problem with this thread is evident in its title. What sort of person starts a thread entitled Judaism 101? It is condescending and insulting, and that's just for openers. Of course things do not go well after that beginning.

 

A few days back I had a discussion with a woman who is somewhat, but not a lot, younger than my 75 years. She was brought up as a Catholic, has not continued in that faith as an adult, and now is doing some further thinking. She was interested in my own upbringing as a Presbyterian, my adult rejection of religion, and my current thoughts on the matter. It was a fine and enjoyable discussion with no hint of trying to ram any beliefs down anyone's throat. This can happen. It all depends on intent.

 

Mr.Ace is of course correct in that we are all being played here.

Ken:

 

There are actually laws in Judaism that determine who is and who is not a Jew. The original law was a child born to a Jewish female. So, it is often said, if your mother was Jewish you are Jewish. Of course, who is and who is not a Jew may be different depending on who is making the determination. Hitler proved this in the 30's and 40's, as he had his own definitions for who was a Jew for purposes of the Final Solution.

 

One of the first laws passed in Israel after the establishment of the State in 1948 was the Law of Return. That law grants citizenship to any Jew who desires to go to Israel. That has led to some controversies over who is and who is not a Jew which sometimes have to be decided by the court system in Israel. One famous case was Meyer Lansky, the mafia member. He was denied citizenship despite being born Jewish.

 

I mentioned in another post that one of the differences between Judaism and other religions is that Judaism not only does not evangelize, it actively discourages conversions. So, in order for a non-Jew to convert, he or she has to actively seek conversion and go through an educational process. But there are tensions between the various factions of Judaism - primarily Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. Orthodox Jews (who hold much political power in Israel) don't recognize conversions performed by Conservative or Reform Rabbis. So, within Judaism, there is a great deal of controversy about who is and who is not a Jew.

 

I would guess that In most religions, anyone who says they profess to be a particular religion is generally accepted as such.

 

I suppose I am providing more information that might qualify under the heading Judaism 101. Personally, I was not offended by the title to the thread - just the one who purported to provide the information. The information provided was so offbase that it was offensive.

[32519]

I suppose I am providing more information that might qualify under the heading Judaism 101. Personally, I was not offended by the title to the thread - just the one who purported to provide the information. The information provided was so offbase that it was offensive.

Art

 

Believe me but no offence whatsoever is intended. I am trying to gather a greater understanding of Judaism. I have upvoted your previous post for the simple reason it adds value to the thread, giving all who are following this thread a greater understanding of Judaism as well. I will hugely appreciate it if you can help us understand how your synagogue hierarchy works.

[billw55]

Art, I am curious. Can one practice Judaism without being Jewish? Or are the two terms synonymous? Does converting to Judaism automatically make one Jewish? I have heard before that "Jewish" is a race, while "Judaism" is a religion, but have never fully understood the link between the two.

[ArtK78]

Art, I am curious. Can one practice Judaism without being Jewish? Or are the two terms synonymous? Does converting to Judaism automatically make one Jewish? I have heard before that "Jewish" is a race, while "Judaism" is a religion, but have never fully understood the link between the two.

I suppose one can practice Judaism without being Jewish. In order to BE Jewish, one has to be born Jewish or convert to Judaism. Conversions are performed by Rabbis who are members of all denominations of Judaism, primarily Orthodox, Conservative and Reform (there are others, such as Reconstructionist). Only Orthodox conversions are recognized by the State of Israel as "true" conversions, largely due to the political power of the Orthodox religious parties in Israel. That is a sore point for Conservative and Reform Jews.

 

As I mentioned previously, Judaism does not practice evangelism, and conversions are, for the most part, discouraged. So there are not a great many conversions.

 

To make the distinction between being Jewish and practicing Judaism clearer, one might look at it from the converse. If one is born Jewish, one is Jewish whether one actually practices Judaism. So one can be Jewish without practicing Judaism.

 

Others may refer to the Jewish race, as the Jewish people tend to keep their identities separate from the general populace even in the midst of other nations. I don't know what the definition of a "race" is (I suppose I could look it up), but I don't believe that there is a Jewish "race." Judaism is a religion.

[barmar]

Others may refer to the Jewish race, as the Jewish people tend to keep their identities separate from the general populace even in the midst of other nations. I don't know what the definition of a "race" is (I suppose I could look it up), but I don't believe that there is a Jewish "race." Judaism is a religion.

I wouldn't call it a "race", I'd call it a "culture" and an "ethnic group".

 

Historically, there has been little enough inter-marriage outside the group that there are genetic traits that are associated with our community. For instance, Tay-Sachs disease is more common among Jews (specifically, the Ashkenazi sect from Eastern Europe). And the punchline "but he doesn't look Jewish" relates to the fact that there are some facial features that are common among Jews. Whether this variation is enough to call us a race is obviously hard to determine, since there's no concrete definition of "race" in the first place (and many geneticists reject the notion entirely). We're probably less distinctive than Scandinavians, and I don't think anyone ever refers to them as a race.

[hrothgar]

We're probably less distinctive than Scandinavians, and I don't think anyone ever refers to them as a race.

 

The expression "Nordic" race used to quite in vogue.

[kenberg]

I resist being labeled. Mostly I resist it because I resist it. But I also think that labels are generally inadequate.

 

Roughly I think of "race" as something you are born into and cannot opt out of, "religion" you may be born into but you have options as you mature. I wouldn't want to push this too hard or far, but that's a starting point for me.

 

I can understand, sort of, the need for Israel to decide this person is a Jew, this other person is not. I would prefer they didn't do this, but it's their business not mine. Me, I am mostly Norwegian genetically, my adoptive father came from somewhere in Europe, apparently Croatia but it is uncertain, my adoptive mother was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist but she ran away from home when she was 14 or so, I was raised as a Presbyterian, I gave up religion in my adolescence and have no interest in going back to it, so lot's of luck to anyone who feels the need to label all of that, and I guarantee that i will reject the label even if they find one.

 

I yam who I yam.

[32519]

To your credit, your scribes, the guys tasked to ensure not only the preservation thereof, but also the accuracy of your scriptures, never incorporated any of these pagan beliefs into your own scriptures.

When both Christianity and Islam turned to your God, to your beliefs, and adopted your scriptures, neither had the discipline nor the will to retain your scriptures without corrupting them (read, adding their own flavour to them). A classic example here is that both Christianity and Islam introduced a fictitious character called satan into the text. This fictitious character appears at least 18 times in the Old Testament of every English translation of the Bible, a fictitious character that does not appear at all in the Hebrew text.

I cannot find this fictitious character called satan anywhere in the Hebrew text. Does anyone know if, and where it appears?