Responding to a 3C opening bid

[MrAce]

I stick to what I posted earlier –..........zipped bs

 

When did you ever not stick to what you said earlier ?

[manudude03]

For what it's worth, I ran a couple of simulations on my own dealer program to check the numbers.

 

North was set to 0-3♠ 0-3♥ 0-4♦ 6-7♣ 6-10HCP (because 6-11 is really rare these days).

These results have the added stipulation that hearts must be shorter (eg. in case 1 I told it to count it if South had 5 spades, 0-4 hearts and 14+HCP)

hand	tests	hands taken*	percentage
5S 14+P	10000	284919		3.501(x2=7.002)
6S 14+P	10000	669973		1.493(x2=2.985)

 

* these are only counted when North's hand qualifies.

 

The first case was a lot closer to 32519's percentage than what I was expecting, and would have been closer if I did say 6-11 HCP. The second case was more like what I was expecting, with it being just over 50% higher than the stated figure.

[hrothgar]

 

0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit and 6-11 HCP

0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 1♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 3♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.01% = Probability of being dealt a 3307 hand and 6-11 HCP [This is so low that you might only find partner with it once every five years]

 

 

I can't help but believe that the probability of being dealt a seven card club suit and 6-11 HCP should be greater than

 

Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 1♥, and 6-11 HCP +

Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, and 6-11 HCP

[manudude03]

I can't help but believe that the probability of being dealt a seven card club suit and 6-11 HCP should be greater than

 

Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 1♥, and 6-11 HCP +

Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, and 6-11 HCP

 

I just checked that on the BBO hand generator, those percentages are for 0+hearts, 1+hearts, 2+hearts etc.

[hrothgar]

I just checked that on the BBO hand generator, those percentages are for 0+hearts, 1+hearts, 2+hearts etc.

 

I knew what mistake he had made, I just found amusing that it went over his head...

[manudude03]

Not that I'm surprised about it happening, but I had missed the mishap myself until you pointed it out, simply reading it as some mis-applied figures that don't really add anything to the discussion, and as such didn't care if the numbers made sense or not.

[straube]

Anyone have a good structure for a 3D preempt?

 

Maybe...

 

3H-5+ hearts

.....3S-2 hearts

.....3N-0-1 hearts

.....etc-3 hearts

3S-5+ spades

 

This picks up 6-2 vs 5-3 hearts but loses out on 5/5 in the majors.

[32519]

Anyone have a good structure for a 3D preempt?

 

Maybe...

 

3H-5+ hearts

.....3S-2 hearts

.....3N-0-1 hearts

.....etc-3 hearts

3S-5+ spades

 

This picks up 6-2 vs 5-3 hearts but loses out on 5/5 in the majors.

If you want to go this route you might be better off by flipping your 3NT and 4♦ responses i.e. over 3♠, 3NT = doubleton ♠; 4♦ = singleton or void in ♠.

 

The full monty would then be -

3♣..

....3♦ = 5/5 in the majors, asking for a 3-card major

......3♥ = 3-card ♠ suit

......3♠ = 3-card ♥ suit

......4♣ = no 3-card major

....3♥ = 5+ ♥, asking for 3-card support

......3♠ = doubleton ♥, no honours in the suit

......3NT = doubleton ♥, 1 of top 3 ♥ honours

......4♣ = singleton or void in ♥

....3♠ = 5+ ♠, asking for 3-card support

......3NT = doubleton ♠ (no room available to distinguish if the doubleton contains an honour card or not)

......4♣ = singleton or void in ♠

 

3♦..

....3♥ = 5+♥, asking for 3-card support

......3♠ = doubleton ♥, no honours in the suit

......3NT = doubleton ♥, 1 of top 3 ♥ honours

......[4♣ is available for some other use]

......4♦ = singleton or void in ♥

....3♠ = 5+ ♠, asking for 3-card support

......3NT = doubleton ♠, no honours in the suit

......4♣ = doubleton ♠, 1 of top 3 honours

......4♦ = singleton or void in ♠

 

I have no idea how to show 5/5 in the majors over 3♦?

[32519]

Anyone have a good structure for a 3D preempt?

 

Maybe...

3H-5+ hearts

.....3S-2 hearts

.....3N-0-1 hearts

.....etc-3 hearts3S-5+ spades

 

This picks up 6-2 vs 5-3 hearts but loses out on 5/5 in the majors.

......[4♣ is available for some other use]

......4♦ = singleton or void in ♥

 

I have no idea how to show 5/5 in the majors over 3♦?

With the 4♣ bid vacant in the scheme proposed, you can use it over 3♦ to show 5/5 in the majors.

Then..

..4♦ = signoff, no 3-card major

..4♥ = signoff, 3-card major

..4♠ = signoff, 3-card major

 

Using this you can find your 5/3 fits. The downside is that the strong hand ends up on table.

[Kungsgeten]

I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

 

I do not know how they play it, but we use:

 

3C---

3D = Puppet to 3H

3M = Natural GF

3NT = To play

4C = Preemptive

 

3C--3D; 3H---

Pass = Good reasons to be playing 3H instead of 3C

3S = To play, as above

3NT = Undefined in our system, but could be a non-forcing slam try in clubs

4C = Asking for trump suit quality (but could be Preemptive Keycard Blackwood if you prefer)

 

We also play that responding 4C to a 3D/H/S opening asks about trump quality.

[paulg]

I do not know how they play it, but we use:

 

3C---

3D = Puppet to 3H

3M = Natural GF

3NT = To play

4C = Preemptive

 

3C--3D; 3H---

Pass = Good reasons to be playing 3H instead of 3C

3S = To play, as above

3NT = Undefined in our system, but could be a non-forcing slam try in clubs

4C = Asking for trump suit quality (but could be Preemptive Keycard Blackwood if you prefer)

 

We also play that responding 4C to a 3D/H/S opening asks about trump quality.

Thanks.

 

It is interesting that you use the puppet primarily to play in a different three-level contract whereas my thoughts were to use 3♦ to find the best game contract.

[straube]

how about...

 

3D-asking

.....3H-not 3 hearts

..........P-long hearts willing to play 4H opposite fit

..........3S-5 spades, forcing

..........3N-5 hearts

.....3S-3 hearts, not 3 spades

.....3N-3S and 3H

3H-6S

.....3S-liketh not spades, nf

.....4H-transfer

3S-6H, forcing

.....4D-transfer

[Zelandakh]

This has indeed come up a few times and I remember Justin posting his version but also cannot find it, only 32519's thread. I like the variant based on skip bid responses where Opener bids the lowest major where they do not hold a 3 card major fragment (or 3NT with both). That does wrong side for the case where Responder has 5 spades and Opener has no major though.

 

Note also that while the primary use of a 3♦ advance is to cover the 5 card major hands it is a bit iof a waste not to include more here. Obvious possibilities would be slam tries in clubs or diamonds but if you wanted you could give up one of these and include a shortage ask or, indeed, almost anything else that took you think might be useful for slam investigation.

[lowerline]

3♣-3♦ with a 5crd major

 

responses:

3♥ = 3crd ♠

3♠ = 3crd ♥

3nt = no 3crd major

4♣ = no 3crd major (and don't want to play 3nt)

4♦ = 3crd ♠&♥

 

then:

3♣-3M always shows a 6crd

3♣-4♦ shows slam interest in clubs

 

 

[paulg]

3♣-3♦ with a 5crd major

 

responses:

3♥ = 3crd ♠

3♠ = 3crd ♥

3nt = no 3crd major

4♣ = no 3crd major (and don't want to play 3nt)

4♦ = 3crd ♠&♥

 

then:

3♣-3M always shows a 6crd

3♣-4♦ shows slam interest in clubs

We settled on this save that 4♣ shows 3-3 majors as we never wanted to go past 3NT without a fit.

[Zelandakh]

We settled on this save that 4♣ shows 3-3 majors as we never wanted to go past 3NT without a fit.

After 4♣ how does Responder show a slam try in clubs, or a big hand with diamonds? One of the advantages of condensing 2 hand types (spade fragment or no fragment) into 3♥ is that it makes everything flow easily when Responder has something other than a 5 card major. Admittedly this is far less common but it is worth considering when you are giving very little up.

[paulg]

After 4♣ how does Responder show a slam try in clubs, or a big hand with diamonds? One of the advantages of condensing 2 hand types (spade fragment or no fragment) into 3♥ is that it makes everything flow easily when Responder has something other than a 5 card major. Admittedly this is far less common but it is worth considering when you are giving very little up.

A slam try in clubs has to do so immediately and we were happy to give up on diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

The thing is that you are not losing anything important by including additional hand types in 3♦. For example:-

 

3♣ - 3♦

==

3♥ = <3 hearts

... - 3♠ = 5 spades

... - 3NT = to play, implies 5 hearts

... - 4♣ = slam try

... - 4♦ = slam try

3♠ = 3 hearts, <3 spades

... - 3NT = to play, implies 5 spades

... - 4♣ = slam try

... - 4♦ = slam try

3NT = 3 hearts, 3 spades

... - 4♣ = slam try

... - 4♦ = slam try

 

The only thing that you are missing here is a slam try in the major when a fit is found. You could easily drop one of these minor suit slam tries in favour of that if preferred. You say that you have a slam try in clubs available. That would be unusual and I am not sure what it might be. Most play 4♣ as preemptive and 4♦ as RKCB. Perhaps 4NT as Last Train? You could keep that and replace 4♣ in the list above with (after 3♠) a slam try in hearts and (after 3NT) a slam try in either major and what is lost? This is why I am generall not so keen on methods that go above 3NT with 3-3 majors.

[paulg]

The thing is that you are not losing anything important by including additional hand types in 3♦.

 

The only thing that you are missing here is a slam try in the major when a fit is found. You could easily drop one of these minor suit slam tries in favour of that if preferred. You say that you have a slam try in clubs available. That would be unusual and I am not sure what it might be. Most play 4♣ as preemptive and 4♦ as RKCB. Perhaps 4NT as Last Train? You could keep that and replace 4♣ in the list above with (after 3♠) a slam try in hearts and (after 3NT) a slam try in either major and what is lost? This is why I am general not so keen on methods that go above 3NT with 3-3 majors.

This looks a very reasonable scheme. But it's hard to quantify the information leakage that occurs without a fit and the possible damage that a double of 3♥ might bring (especially as it could be a positive thing).

[steve2005]

3♣-3♦ with a 5crd major

 

responses:

3♥ = 3crd ♠

3♠ = 3crd ♥

3nt = no 3crd major

4♣ = no 3crd major (and don't want to play 3nt)

4♦ = 3crd ♠&♥

 

then:

3♣-3M always shows a 6crd

3♣-4♦ shows slam interest in clubs

If your style is to preempt on good minor suits in 1st and 2nd seat then you will always be leaving the decision to bid 3N to the responder. So if that's the case you won't ever bid/need the 4♣ response.

If opener is 3-3 in the majors then they are either 3=3=1=6 or 3=3=0=7, so why not show which shape you have?

4♣: 3=3=1=6

4♦: 3=3=0=7

course if you open 3♣ on garbage you can use 4♣ for that with no 3M, 4♦: 3=3=1=6, 4♥: 3=3=0=7

[benlessard]

Late here but 3D ask asking for 3M was suggested by Rosenkraz its in one of the Romex book. Im quite a fan of Rosenkraz way of thinking for many things.

 

Our 3C preempt is sound since we have 2NT available for garb preempt one minor.

 

3D= ask for 3M (or keyc in clubs) any 4 club rebid by responder is Rkc in clubs (except 3C-4C).

 

3C-3D-??

 

3H= no M

3S = 3H no 3S

3NT = 3S no 3H

 

rest is 3316,3307 replying clubs keycards (cant bypass 4H),

 

3C-3D

3H-??

 

3S (both M 5-5 or 5-6)

3NT to play

4C = clubs rkc

 

My guess at the time was that some 5S/5H are willing to force to 4M but some arent also I wanted to be in 4H when 22 vs 56. Note our 3C are sound so that why 3Nt might make even if hand is misfit. I also tought that knowing a little bit more about opener shape before making a Rkc in clubs was a good idea. If ive got a huge bal hand with 4c & 4D the chance partner got 3M is good.

 

 

Didnt bring a lot of positive result so far. I think our only gain was one hand where keycarding in 4C instead of 4D made a difference.

 

Im wondering if responder is 56?? and opener is 2137 or 2147 should opener pass 4H or correct to 4S ?