Responding to a 3C opening bid

[paulg]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

 

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

[whereagles]

3♦ has little use as natural. You can use it anyway you want.

 

It may be nice to use it to tell good from bad preempts, as a 3♣ is often off-shape (2♣ not available as weak).

[glen]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major ...

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

 

3♣-3♦ asks:

-- 3♥: not 3♥s, now 3♠ asks:

---- 3NT: not 3♠s, rest with 3♠s

-- 3♠: 3♥s

[kenrexford]

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

 

3♣-3♦ asks:

-- 3♥: not 3♥s, now 3♠ asks:

---- 3NT: not 3♠s, rest with 3♠s

-- 3♠: 3♥s

 

This seems kind of strange as a structure.

 

If Responder has just spades, he gets great information about Opener's hand if Opener does not have three hearts also. If Opener is 3-3-0-7 or 3-3-1-6, however, the spade fit might be lost.

 

If Responder has just hearts, he will know that there is a fit when Opener bids 3♠, and the contract is likelier to be right-sided, but there is not much in the way of extra pattern known.

 

If Responder has both majors 5-5, the right game will be found, and all is well.

 

Contrast this with the following:

 

3♥ = 3 spades, or neither (3♠ asks)

 

3♠ = 3 hearts, not three spades

 

3NT = both 3-card majors

 

In this structure, all contracts are right-sided. No major fits can be missed, which is probably more important.

 

The Robinson approach, again, seems to have a gaping hole when Opener has 3316 and Responder has five spades.

 

 

 

[steve2005]

How bout 3♦ as asking for a stopper with 3N being a ♦ stopper and 4♣ as no stopper.

 

3N seems a likely goal and may be useful if your thinking of a ♣ slam.

[PhilKing]

The first structure is wrong as has been pointed out before, because it wrong-side 3NT in 2 instances (go through them and you will see what I mean). Ken's wrong-sides when responder has five spades and opener has neither. You can do better as follows:

 

3♦ asks:

 

3♥ = no 3M

3♠ = 3♥

3NT = 3♠

 

This only wrong-sides NT when responder has 5♥ and a desire to play 3NT opposite no fit. And when opener has no 3-card major, responder can bid 3NT or bid 3♠ as an artificial probe suggesting 3NT, but only if opener is suitable.

[PhilKing]

Er, we can get (almost) the lot. After 3♦:

 

3♥ = one 3 card major

3♠ = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side

3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT

4♣ = both 3M

 

After 3♥:

 

3♠ = nat

3NT = 5♥

 

But the problem here is one of information leakage.

[gnasher]

3♠ = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side

3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?

[Finch]

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?

 

Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

 

Qx

Qx

Qxx

Q109xxx

 

?

[PhilKing]

Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

 

Qx

Qx

Qxx

Q109xxx

 

?

 

Perfect hand for the system. B-)

[32519]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt...

Try this -

 

RESPONDER NEEDS A VERY GOOD REASON TO REMOVE THE PRE-EMP, AS OPENER’S HAND MAY BE COMPLETELY USELESS OUTSIDE OF THE SUIT BID, WHEREAS RESPONDER’S HAND CAN PROVIDE TRICKS IN THE OTHER 3 SUITS TO TAKE CARE OF OPENER’S LOSERS

RESPONSES AFTER 3♣ PRE-EMPT:

 

Pass (The hand belongs to the opponents)

3♦: 3♦ over 3♣ is own 7-card minor suit, no support for opener’s suit, not much anywhere else

3♥: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

 

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3♥

1. 3♠: 1 step (cheapest bid), singleton or void in ♥, no ♥ stopper

a) Responder places the final contract

2. 3NT: I have a ♥ stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx

a) Responder places the final contract (often 4♥ on a good 5-2 trump fit)

3. 4♣: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in ♥

a) Responder places the final contract

4. 4♥: Game in asking suit = 3-card support

 

3♠: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

 

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3♠

1. 3NT: I have a ♠ stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx

a) Responder places the final contract (often 4♠ on a good 5-2 trump fit)

2. 4♣: 1 step (cheapest bid excluding 3NT), singleton or void in ♠, no ♠ stopper

a. Responder places the final contract

3. 4♦: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in ♠

4. 4♠: Game in asking suit = 3-card support

[MrAce]

Try this -

 

...........

........

......

 

No, thanks !

[PhilG007]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

 

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

 

When I was a student,I was taught that when partner opened a pre empt,he was saying

loud and clear that he was only interested in HIS suit. The yardstick for raising depended

on how many quick tricks were held by the responder, 4 QT if non vul,3 if vul.

I was also taught that responder should never go into NT unless he(responder) held a minimum

of 3 cards in the pre empt suit.

[32519]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

 

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card ♣ suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:

0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP

0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X♥

0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X♥

0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X♥

 

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.

[Antrax]

So what you're saying is that given a 3♣ preempt, there's a 1 in 6 chance he has a three-card heart fragment? So roughly 1 in 3 to have a 3M fragment?

[straube]

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card ♣ suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:

0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP

0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X♥

0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X♥

0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X♥

 

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.

 

Many 6-cd club suits get preempted...especially because very few people have a weak two in clubs available.

 

If you want to look at odds, why not look at how often partner will have a 3-cd holding given the fact that he has already opened 3C? For example, the odds you list are very low, but 0.15% divided by 0.47% suggests that almost half the time opener will have 3 hearts along with 7 clubs. Seems high to me but I assume that's right. So if you have 5 hearts as responder, it's worth considering that opener could have 3-cd support for you.

 

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.

[32519]

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.

[straube]

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.

 

In your structure, responder can't ask for support of a specific major without risking opener bypassing 3N when he doesn't have 3-cd support. For example...

 

3C-3H, 4C for doubleton without a stopper

 

and

 

3C-3S, 4C for singleton without a stopper

 

and

 

3C-3S, 4D for doubleton without a stopper

 

That's really fatal. So it the idea of responder only bidding 3N with a stopper in the suit that responder holds.

 

You also need to clean up...

 

3C-3H, ? because two rebids qualify for Qxx....the rebid of 3N and the raise to 4H. Probably you mean 4H.

 

I don't expect you'll change your mind, so agree to disagree. Good luck.

[Siegmund]

Not yet mentioned in the thread is Andersen and Zenkel's Preempts from A to Z

 

They recommended 3D asking for a 3-card major. I don't have the book handy but I think their proposed rebids were

3H = 3 spades

3S = 3 hearts

3NT = both majors

4C = no major.

 

I don't doubt that it can be squeezed into one fewer step if you are prepared to occasionally wrongside 3NT. But simple is good, for a moderately uncommon situation.

 

I found it actually came up with some frequency, with the one regular partner who played it, and gained me something I could not get by any other means. When partner opened 3D and I had a nice 5-card major I actually missed it.

[32519]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

 

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

I find this thread of yours intriguing. To remove a 3-level pre-empt you obviously have a very good reason to do so. Help me to get a better understanding of what responder's hand looks like to remove the pre-empt -

1. What is the minimum number of HCP opener can expect to find responder with?

2. What sort of distribution are we talking about here with responder? In looking for a 3-card major, are you implying that responder is 5/5 in the majors?

3. Does the 3♦ asking bid absolutely deny any sort of fit with opener?

[straube]

I think kenrexford nailed it.

[32519]

Paulg started this thread and then vanished.

1. What is the minimum HCP responder can be expected to hold to start this inquiry sequence?

2. What is responder’s expected distribution? Ken’s post makes sense if responder has a 5/5 holding in the majors and wants to know about 3-cards in either suit from opener.

 

0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit and 6-11 HCP

0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 1♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 3♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.01% = Probability of being dealt a 3307 hand and 6-11 HCP [This is so low that you might only find partner with it once every five years]

0.15% = Probability of being dealt 3316 hand and 6-11 HCP [This is better – pre-empt with a 6-card club suit and Ken’s post can work more often]

0.18% = Probability of being dealt 5/5 in the majors and 14+ HCP

 

6.92% = Probability of being dealt a 5-card major and 14+ HCP

1.98% = Probability of being dealt a 6-card major and 14+ HCP [This is a considerable drop-off by adding in the sixth card]

[manudude03]

Paulg started this thread and then vanished.

1. What is the minimum HCP responder can be expected to hold to start this inquiry sequence?

2. What is responder’s expected distribution? Ken’s post makes sense if responder has a 5/5 holding in the majors and wants to know about 3-cards in either suit from opener.

 

0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit and 6-11 HCP

0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 1♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 3♥, and 6-11 HCP

0.01% = Probability of being dealt a 3307 hand and 6-11 HCP [This is so low that you might only find partner with it once every five years]

0.15% = Probability of being dealt 3316 hand and 6-11 HCP [This is better – pre-empt with a 6-card club suit and Ken’s post can work more often]

0.18% = Probability of being dealt 5/5 in the majors and 14+ HCP

 

6.92% = Probability of being dealt a 5-card major and 14+ HCP

1.98% = Probability of being dealt a 6-card major and 14+ HCP [This is a considerable drop-off by adding in the sixth card]

 

If those percentages are from the BBO hand generator, they cannot be counted on, since they don't take the other hands into account. As for the questions

1. It's none of opener's business, but 14+ HCP is probably a fair baseline, if responder has something fitting in clubs.

2. There are no real distribution requirements. I don't think it's even necessary to have any majors to make the bid. xxx AK AKxxxx Kx, 3NT or 5C?. If you were guessing blind, partner could easily have xxx xxx x AQJxxx or x xxx xxx AQJxxx.

[paulg]

Paulg started this thread and then vanished.

I've always been here and I appreciate everyone who has made a contribution to the thread, and just thought many of the questions were rhetorical. It is not an area where you want complex agreements since it will not occur frequently. Most of us recognise a hand that wants to bid over a pre-empt and I think many of us are less constrained with our pre-empts than others. So the likelihood of having a good major fit is reasonable and the loss of a natural 3♦ is not too high.

[32519]

I stick to what I posted earlier – it is better for responder to “ask” about the holding in a specific major than having opener “tell” what he has. Finding out that opener has 3-cards in the major that responder does not have helps squat.

 

Based purely on frequency of occurrence here is my final offer in this thread.

6.92% = the probability of being dealt a 5-card major and 14+ HCP

1.98% = the probability of being dealt a 6-card major and 14+ HCP

0.32% = the probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 2♥, 6-11 HCP

0.15% = the probability of being dealt a 7-card club suit, 3♥, 6-11 HCP

0.01% = the probability of being dealt a 3307 hand, 6-11 HCP

 

So if responder is afraid of going past opener’s suit when replying to the “asking” bid in the following auction –

3♣-3♠-?

3NT (1 step) = singleton or void in spades

4♣ (2 steps) = doubleton spade

Depending on responders overall hand strength and club fit, he can, a) pass 4♣ to play, b) bid 4♠ on a 6-2 fit, c) bid 4♠ on a 5-2 fit holding the top 3 honours in the spade suit, d) bid 5♣ to play

4♠ = 3-card spade support