1C - dbl - 1S while playing transfers

[bluecalm]

Do you play it as transfer to 1N or showing diamonds ? (or maybe something else).

For people playing transfers even without dbl: do you play this sequence the same as after dbl ? Which way ?

[paulg]

As always it depends what else you do, but our approach without competition is that 1♠ shows 5-11 HCP without a four-card major. This is in the context where we use 1NT as a game-forcing relay (may be a club force) and 2♣ as game-forcing with diamonds. We used to play that 1♠ just showed diamonds, but a big benefit of this new approach is that opener can rebid 2♦ to show 18-19 balanced and we have better definition over a 1NT rebid too. Occasionally we'll lose a diamond fit, normally when the opponents have the balance of points and the majors ... which is when you'd normally be out-gunned anyhow.

 

In competition 1♠ is just a noise, showing values without a more descriptive call available. It may be a hand that most would bid 1NT on but does deny 5-9 points with at least 4-4 in the minors.

[helene_t]

what about transfers starting with rdbl->diamonds

 

Then 1♠ is available for showing both minors.

 

Alternatively, use rdbl to show both majors, and play system on otherwise (assuming you system doesn't have another bid that shows both majors).

[PhilKing]

I like redouble as any 8+ with no clear bid (forcing to 1NT, next double is for take-out). This helps give greater definition to other bids:

 

1♦ = 5+♥

1♥ = 5+♠

1♠ = 4+ clubs

1NT = 4+♦ NF

2♣ = 5+♦F1

2♦♥♠ = fit jumps, NF

 

With 5-7 points and no decent suit, I think it is best to just pass over the double.

[gnasher]

I like redouble as diamonds, 1♠ as notrumps, 1NT as clubs.

[paulg]

I should have added that we do use redouble as diamonds and 1NT as clubs, so 1♠ does tend to be no-trumps.

[Finch]

After the double, we play redouble as diamonds, 1NT as NT and 1♠ as a good club raise (2C weak with 5+ clubs)

Without the double we play 1S as diamonds and 1NT as NT.

[fromageGB]

Essentially system on after interference, with the added benefit here of a redouble as a transfer to diamonds. So 1♠ is a relay that denies a 4 card major. Opener bids 1NT with the 12-14, 2♣ with 6 card, or otherwise whatever other descriptive bid he would make.

 

With or without the X our 1♠ could be the start of showing a minor orientated hand, but the X removes the diamond holdings.

[gnasher]

1NT as NT and 1♠ as a good club raise

To me that seems obviously worse than 1♠ as NT and 1NT as a good club raise, because you'll wrongside notrumps far more often than I will.

[gszes]

Completely unasked for opinion since I do not care for the transfers:

 

xx normal penalty seeking or better and most invitational club support hands

pass does not say much but at least you can stand clubs.

1d denies a 5 card suit (unless it is diamonds) and hates

clubs less than xx

1h denies 5s (see 2d) less than xx has at least 5 hearts

1s has at least 5 spades may have 4 hearts or diamonds less than xx

1n 4+ clubs 4 hearts less than xx

2c 4+ clubs 4 spades less than xx

2d both majors 55 or better (unlimited)

2h preemptive

2s preemptive

2n minors less than xx

3c preemptive

3 d/h/s at least 6 invitational

 

I will bid with less than "six" if I really really hate clubs so

my p should not be shocked to see me bidding 1d with Kxxx xxxx xxxx x.

[jallerton]

I like redouble as diamonds, 1♠ as notrumps, 1NT as clubs.

 

After the double, we play redouble as diamonds, 1NT as NT and 1♠ as a good club raise (2C weak with 5+ clubs)

Without the double we play 1S as diamonds and 1NT as NT.

 

To me that seems obviously worse than 1♠ as NT and 1NT as a good club raise, because you'll wrongside notrumps far more often than I will.

 

In your system, you either have to play 1NT as limited, in which case you have to find another way of bidding good hands with clubs, or you have to play 1NT as forcing, in which case you can't bid 1NT on 6-10HCP hands with 4 clubs.

 

Playing Frances's suggestion, wrongsiding NT is not too much of a concern as Responder always has the option of showing his suit if he doesn't fancy declaring NT.

[gnasher]

In your system, you either have to play 1NT as limited, in which case you have to find another way of bidding good hands with clubs, or you have to play 1NT as forcing, in which case you can't bid 1NT on 6-10HCP hands with 4 clubs.

 

Playing Frances's suggestion, wrongsiding NT is not too much of a concern as Responder always has the option of showing his suit if he doesn't fancy declaring NT.

In Frances's system 1NT is limited too, so she has to find another way of bidding good hands with notrumps.

 

In Frances's system, how does responder bid a 3334 6-count?

[bluecalm]

In Frances's system, how does responder bid a 3334 6-count?

 

Maybe a pass ?

[PhilKing]

In Frances's system, how does responder bid a 3334 6-count?

 

I would strongly suggest passing. Within a strong no trump context bidding is pretty crazy imo.

[PhilKing]

Since when did diamonds become so important after 1♣-x? Just because Bocchi plays redouble as diamonds does not make it right. If you don't like 5-card major transfers, try this:

 

xx = hearts

1♦ = spades

1♥ = clubs

1♠ = diamonds

 

That way, you get to show all suits in a timely manner, and give due weight to the majors.

[fromageGB]

Since when did diamonds become so important after 1♣-x? Just because Bocchi plays redouble as diamonds does not make it right. If you don't like 5-card major transfers, try this:

On the other hand, why confuse yourself with something that is completely different to what you would do without the X ?

 

I don't see how this is better than XX = ♦, 1♦ = ♥, 1♥ = ♠, 1♠ = ♣, or better : 1♠ = relay (maybe NT orientated) and 1NT = ♣.

[PhilKing]

On the other hand, why confuse yourself with something that is completely different to what you would do without the X ?

 

I don't see how this is better than XX = ♦, 1♦ = ♥, 1♥ = ♠, 1♠ = ♣, or better : 1♠ = relay (maybe NT orientated) and 1NT = ♣.

 

It's basic theory. Diamonds are not important enough to use up your most economical call (that's the main reason we play transfers in the first place). You generally only want to show diamonds when you have no major, and if that is so you may as well cut out the one level. I won't go in to the possibilities of two-under transfers, but if you don't like complication, then you are free to play something simple.

[steve2005]

pass=0-4

Rdbl=5-7

1♦=♥

1♥=♠

1♠=balanced 8-13

1N=♣

2♣=♦

2♦=multi - weak 2 in a major

2♥=4441

2♠=5m440

2N=balanced 14+

[gnasher]

Playing Frances's suggestion, wrongsiding NT is not too much of a concern as Responder always has the option of showing his suit if he doesn't fancy declaring NT.

Sorry to harp on about this, but I don't see how this is supposed to help. As responder in this sequence I would never fancy declaring 1NT, because I'd always expect it to be better to put the doubler on lead.

 

Presumably with xx xxx AQ9xx xxx you show diamonds, because that seems descriptive. But what do you do with Axx xxx Qxxx Kxx? Bid 1NT and wrongside it, or show your diamond suit and hope partner isn't tempted to compete in the suit?

[fromageGB]

Gnasher has to be right. Opener is balanced, doubler is balanced, responder is often balanced and wants to do nothing except let opener play the hand in 1NT.

 

You need to get 4 suits and NT into 4 calls, so to combine 2 of them it seems sensible to have a relay that normally elicits 1NT and then allows clubs to be shown.

[jallerton]

In Frances's system 1NT is limited too, so she has to find another way of bidding good hands with notrumps.

 

In a simulation of 13-card hands, 100.0% had at least one 4-card or longer suit. With a balanced 11+HCP, show a 4- or 5-card suit, planning to bid or raise NT on the next round.

 

In Frances's system, how does responder bid a 3334 6-count?

 

This hand can pass, but particularly if NV, I'd like to make a bid showing club support (in case partner wants to compete in that suit) but than doesn't get us above 1NT (in case Opener doesn't actually have clubs).

 

Sorry to harp on about this, but I don't see how this is supposed to help. As responder in this sequence I would never fancy declaring 1NT, because I'd always expect it to be better to put the doubler on lead.

 

Presumably with xx xxx AQ9xx xxx you show diamonds, because that seems descriptive. But what do you do with Axx xxx Qxxx Kxx? Bid 1NT and wrongside it, or show your diamond suit and hope partner isn't tempted to compete in the suit?

 

Yes, on the first hand, I'd make whatever call shows diamonds, as (i) it might be useful to show the suit and (ii) I'd prefer partner to declare.

On the second hand, I'd bid 1NT (unless I had the agreement that this promised 4 clubs). I want to get to 1NT as quickly as possible and take away the 1-level from LHO. Why is bidding 1NT 'wrongsiding'? It's possible that LHO will find a heart lead through partner's holding at trick one, but it's also possible that he'll lead the wrong suit, not knowing where the doubler's strength and length lie. Also, your suggested bid of 1♠ gives the next hand two bites at the cherry, including the chance to double 1♠.

[gnasher]

Why is bidding 1NT 'wrongsiding'? It's possible that LHO will find a heart lead through partner's holding at trick one, but it's also possible that he'll lead the wrong suit, not knowing where the doubler's strength and length lie.

He might also lead a spade through partner's holding, or a diamond through partner's holding, or even a club through partner's holding. The key points are that he'll lead through our stronger hand, towards their stronger hand, and from his longest suit.

 

Also, your suggested bid of 1♠ gives the next hand two bites at the cherry, including the chance to double 1♠.

Yes, allowing a double or non-double of 1♠ is a disadvantage, and allowing the extra sequence pass-then-act is a small disadvantage. However, using 1♠ to show clubs has the same two disadvantages. Do you think that the latter are less significant than the former?

[jallerton]

Yes, over 1♠ showing "no-trumps" presumably your plan is to put the dummy down in NT. Over 1♠ showing clubs, we sometimes get to play in clubs.

[helene_t]

Since when did diamonds become so important after 1♣-x? Just because Bocchi plays redouble as diamonds does not make it right.

Yes. The double gives you one extra call so you can show one hand-type more than you could otherwise. Does nobody think it's a good idea to have a way to show both majors immediately? If we have to transfer to hearts with those hands, opps will find their diamond fit before we find our spades fit.

[fromageGB]

In a simulation of 13-card hands, 100.0% had at least one 4-card or longer suit.

If you are quoting this figure to a precision of 1 decimal place, presumably you need to have more than a 1000 samples generated?