Freak Hand

[lenze]

Here is a real freak from the club game yesterday afternoon. I wasn't there, but heard about it later. Out of 9 pairs, no one reached the top spot of 7C, although a couple were doubled in 6C

 

North

S Void

H T98xx

D KQJxx

C KQT

 

South

S AKTxxx

H Void

D Void

C AJ9xxxx

 

South Deals(No interference)

[pbleighton]

1S

2D (that's not a 5 card heart suit)

3C

3H

4C (slow boat to...a bad place??)

4S cue - hope P figures out it's short

6C

7C(feeling VERY lucky)

 

At the table, I wouldn't bid 7C.

[luis]

North

S Void

H T98xx

D KQJxx

C KQT

 

South

S AKTxxx

H Void

D Void

C AJ9xxxx

 

No interference? Will wonders never cease? :-)

Let's try a German-Moscito auction, we would have bid:

 

1c (15+ any) 1s (4+h)

1n (relay) 2c (diammonds)

2d (relay) 2s (equal length)

2n (relay) 3s (0-5-5-3 exactly)

4c (relay) 4d (2 controls)

4h (where?) 4s (nothing in hearts)

4n (go on) 5d (dK, cK, no hQ)

5h (more!) 6c (dQ, cQ no hJ)

7c (thanks) pass

 

Once you know responder has 0-5-5-3 a club game, slam or grand is vry likely, with 2 honors opener asks willing to play 5c if they are in the wrong place.

An important point is that opener must open 1c and not 1s because he has just a few losers and because it is important for him to be the one asking since even playing moscito the auction would get too high to descibre a 6-0-0-7 hand.

 

When a freakish hand can take control in a relay auction the pair playing a relay system has an incredible advantage over those playing standard methods where you have to make really wild bids and even then it would be hard to read the exact picture of your hand.

[pbleighton]

Luis -

1) Your relay auction is, as always, impressive.

 

2) General question - appoximately what percentage of the time, opening 1C in Moscito, do you experience:

a) No interference

B) Interference from dbl to 1S

c) Interference from 1NT to 2H

d) Interference 2S and up?

 

Interference defined as the highest bid by the opps.

[luis]

Luis -

1) Your relay auction is, as always, impressive.

 

2) General question - appoximately what percentage of the time, opening 1C in Moscito, do you experience:

a) No interference

B) Interference from dbl to 1S

c) Interference from 1NT to 2H

d) Interference 2S and up?

 

Interference defined as the highest bid by the opps.

 

The 1c opening is, as usual, the weakest link in a strong club auction, I would say we get some interference in about 40% of the hands we open 1c. Note that moscito uses relays over all the openings, the real strength of the system is being able to get the full distribution of opener after a 1h or 1s or 1d 10-14 opening bid where it's hard to interfere because you may be preempting your own side.

 

2) Your question is very interesting so I'd comment what are our agreements to defend after our 1c bid is overcalled.

 

 

a) No interference

About 60% of the time, balanced hands, bad hands without a biddable suit, etc. Strongish hands usually pass to because they don't know what to bid.

 

B) Interference from dbl to 1S

They never double because they don't know if that means clubs or if it means a normal takeout being 1c artificial. The double or 1d intereferences are actually good for the system since you have even more bidding space, over double you can pass or redouble in adition of the 1d+ bids you normally have. We have special agreements for the "extra" bids in case they double 1c or bid 1d:

1c (x) pass = 0-5

1c (x) xx = 6-8 with 5+ clubs

1c (x) 1d = 6-8

Others = system-on

 

1c(1d) pass = 0-5

1c(1d) x = 6-8

Others = system-on

 

1d, 1h, and 1s overcalls are the normal overcalls we get, so we have an agreement to play "system on" after an interference of 1d,1h,1s. We don't want to give up the relay structure after a "normal" overcall.

If they bid 1h we have no problem pass is like a 1d bid, double like a 1h bid, 1s=1s etc, system-on. If they bid 1s we are system-on but one-level-up, pass=1d, double=1h, 1n=1s etc. This has the interesting side effect that in our system 1c-1h shows 4+ spades so 1c(1s)x shows 4+ spades and can be left as a penalty double at the 1 level (last time it was 1100).

 

c) Interference from 1NT to 2S

They never bid 1NT over 1c because if 1c is strong why bid a natural 1N? and they don't have an agreement of what 1nt is otherwise. Just in case some pair bid a 15-17 NT over the strong club (will wonders never cease) we use double as 8+, 2x bids as weak hands with a biddable suit and 2NT as the special Game-Forcing hand that can't double 1NT (distributional two suiter or freakish hand)

 

2 level bids are seldom seen, mainly in hands with a 6+ suit and weak values. We play Rubensohl against 2x bids because we like to have an option to double a "funny" 2x bid for penalties.

 

d) Interference 2N and up?

Very rare, only with some good 7+ card suits, we use double for takeout and bid naturally after a 3x preempt.

 

If they bid a conventional bid showing a two suiter we bid double as "1 or 2 penalty doubles, pd WAIT!" Cuebids and suits depend on the suits shown or not shown by overcaller. The funny story is that one day an opp overcalled 1c with 2NT alerted as (any two suiter) and pd doubled alerted as (From 1 to 4 penalty doubles) :-) they unfortunately got in a rotating doubling sequence and finished playing a bad contract doubled. My conclusion was that unless you know what you are doing or your opps don't have a prepared defense against overcalls you should be careful, they are in known territory and you are not and things can be very very bad for you.

 

Last note:

99.99% of our opps don't use a prepared defense against our strong 1c opening.

 

Maybe I should post this in the systems forum some pairs may want to know our "forma" treatment of overcalls after 1c.

[lenze]

Although we weren't present at the game when this deal came up, my regular partner and I produced this simple auction after a few drinks at the bar.

 

S 1C

N 1H

S 2S

N 3C * I prefer clubs to spades

S 3S

N 4C * I REALLY prefer clubs

S 5NT

N 7C

[inquiry]

North

S Void

H T98xx

D KQJxx

C KQT

 

South

S AKTxxx

H Void

D Void

C AJ9xxxx

 

No interference? Will wonders never cease? :-)

Let's try a German-Moscito auction, we would have bid:

 

1c (15+ any) 1s (4+h)

1n (relay) 2c (diammonds)

2d (relay) 2s (equal length)

2n (relay) 3s (0-5-5-3 exactly)

4c (relay) 4d (2 controls)

4h (where?) 4s (nothing in hearts)

4n (go on) 5d (dK, cK, no hQ)

5h (more!) 6c (dQ, cQ no hJ)

7c (thanks) pass

 

Once you know responder has 0-5-5-3 a club game, slam or grand is vry likely, with 2 honors opener asks willing to play 5c if they are in the wrong place.

An important point is that opener must open 1c and not 1s because he has just a few losers and because it is important for him to be the one asking since even playing moscito the auction would get too high to descibre a 6-0-0-7 hand.

 

I have refrained, until now, posting about this freak hand. First, let's imagine a standard auction. I would open south 1C and then reverse in spades a couple of times. Something like

 

1C 1H

2S 3D (3D = check back)

4S 7C (4S = 6-7 hand....)

Pass

 

It is going to be a guess for the standard players, partner opened, reversed, jumped to game in spades. What else can it be but this hand? Not science, but at least reasonable. 7C is certainly not cold, but I expect partner to have something like SAQxxxx - - CAJxxxxx at a very sub minimum. Maybe 6C would be enough.

 

I have spent the last few days studying German Moscito, thanks to the link provided by sdebios. If they open this hand 1S (4+spades), they will have huge trouble bidding the grand slam, no so much because of relay problems, I don't think north's hand with a void is strong enough to force with relays opposite possible 9 point hand. Luis commented on this hand to open this hand 1C (which in theory shows 15 points), but shading it 3points with this distribution seems reasonable.

 

The bidding given by luis isn't quite German moscito. The opening bid and relays are correct. But the location of the keycards are not. For one thing, German moscito (as stated in the link provided in the learn moscito file), shows the controls in a different manner than suggested by Luis. I think the German moscito auction would go (all you moscitolites help me out here when I make mistakes....

 

1c (15+ any) 1s (4+h)

1n (relay) 2c (second suit diamonds)

2d (relay) 2s (* see below equal length)

2n (relay) 3s (0-5-5-3 exactly * see below)

4c (relay) 4d (2 controls * see below)

4n (Club SAB) 5s (A or KQ of clubs)

7C (go on) pass

 

Here, are some observations on the moscito auction.

1) Responder showed two suits, so 2D was asking for more info. A neat feature is over this 2D bid, 2H means the lower suit is longer, 2S means the two suits are equal legnth, and above two spades would be hearts are longer than diamonds.

 

2) So when opener relayed with 2NT he knew responder had either 4-4 in the reds, or 5-5 or 6-6. Over 2NT, with a club shortness (any legnth) responder would bid 3C, so 3D or more showed short spade. 3D would have been 2443, 3H would have been 1552, so 3S was 0553.

 

3) a 3nt over 3S would be to play, so 4C asked for controls. The minimum with a 9+ hand is 2, so responder showed two controls with 4D bid. Here is where Luis auction and standard German-Moscito split. Luis's shown cue-bidding is not what is given in the german moscito pdf. And this could lead to some confusion, I know it did for me. But the standard german cue-bidding is no picnic either.

 

In German-Moscito, over 4D,

4H ask about the longest suit (or with equal, the highest)

4S ask about the second longest

4N ask about the third longest.

 

So here, 4NT ask specifically about the club suit. The response, shows either the ACE or the KQ. So Opener knows north holds KQx of clubs and a spade void. Bidding the grand seems reasonable.

 

My problem understanding moscito however is how do you signoff if 2 controls isn't enough for slam if all the bids are asking? Maybe a terminator like 4D is needed (with 4H being the terminator). Also, in German moscito there is a big risk in bidding 4H's here as an asking bid. If partner think that hearts is the "inferred" trump suit, instead of 4H being an asking bid, it is to play. What are the rules governing the "inferred" trump suit? Luis cue-bidding style (not fully disclosed in his auction) of using denial cue-bidding may solve this problem of bailing out when 2 or 3 controls are not enough. Anyone want to comment on stopping moscito auctions after controls are shown if the next four bids are all specific asking bids?

 

Ben

[luis]

Hi Ben,

 

First of all we changed the slam investigation tools from german moscito to a standarized control-asking bid followed by denial cuebidding.

In my opnion this is superior to the CAB+SABs approach of the original German Moscito. I'm sure Ron and Richard will agree with this.

 

Your guess about the German Moscito auction is almost ok, in German Moscito after shape is known 4d is used as a terminator while all the other bids are control asking bids (CABs) setting up the trump suit (this is important!) then non-trump suit bids are SABs (Suit asking bids) while the trump suit at any level is to play. Sometimes smart players can setup a different trump suit than the one they will really use to play the hand but handling that is very subtle and you have to foresee all the probable responses by pd and how the auction will end.

 

In the presented hand

 

North

S Void

H T98xx

D KQJxx

C KQT

 

South

S AKTxxx

H Void

D Void

C AJ9xxxx

 

 

1c (15+ any) 1s (4+h)

1n (relay) 2c (diammonds)

2d (relay) 2s (equal length)

2n (relay) 3s (0-5-5-3 exactly)

 

 

Now 3n is to play, and 4d is the terminator so 4c,4h,4s and 4n are CABs setting up hearts, diamonds, clubs or spades as trumps respectively.

An interesting approach here would be to setup hearts (the cheapest) suit as the trump suit and then ask a SAB in clubs to find if responder has KQ of clubs to play 7.

 

This approach is less efficient and loses more space (due to the terminator and 4 different cabs) than then generic-CAB followed by denial cuebbidding. The later has the problem that in order to play in a suit the suit must not be a relay :-) So Sometimes you must play 5s because 4s would have been a relay. That is normally harmless since you are only asking if you have slam chances and the 5 level if you are unlucky to end there should be safe.

Besides those advantages the method is easy to remember and to handle and you have to think less.

Do change :-)

[the hog]

First of all we changed the slam investigation tools from german moscito to a standarized control-asking bid followed by denial cuebidding.

In my opnion this is superior to the CAB+SABs approach of the original German Moscito. I'm sure Ron and Richard will agree with this.

 

Yes do agree with this.

Though we have changed to the following which was proposed by Bruce Neill:

 

Once full shapes is shown eg 3S to show a 0553 lets say

 

 

Now:

step excluding 3NT is an AKQ control ask (3NT is always tp)

4D is the End signal (terminator)

4H RKCB in higher of equal suits (H here), or longest suit if 5431 eg

4S RKCB in next longest 4NT RKCB in third longest, 5C in shortest.

 

After RKC, a bid of the asked suit is tp, others are SABs

 

After a control ask:

step begins denial cue bids - all else is to play, not an asking bid

If RR (Relay responder) has shown a s/t or a void

1 step = all contols in 1 suit OR something in all

2 steps = all in one and 2 (where 2 is the second longest)

3 steps = all in 1 and 3

4 steps = all in 2 and 3

 

After this, step asks for next hon down - Qs if they havent yet been shown, else Jacks, shown in normal denial cue bidding style.

 

We do not count (or show) singleton Ks or Qs. Count stiff Aces.

 

What this means is that an auction has to be planned carefully. What do you need to know, controls, or KCards and specific controls.

 

After a sign off RR can move if he has base +3AKQ controls and about a 14 count.

 

If not wanting to relay a hand out in full, you can make a relay break and set a suit after hitting 2 initial relays. This sets the bid suit and is RKCB. Other continuations would be as above after this.

 

With the given hand and the new Moscito structure the relays would be:

 

1C 1D (1D = GF )

1H 2D (1H says "you show", 2D = H+D)

2H 2NT (2NT = 5/5)

3C 3D (3D = high shortage)

 

Now you have to decide what to do. A control ask (3S) probably does not tell you what you want.

3NT = t/p, 4C sets H, 4D End signal, 4H sets D 4S sets C. You will find out he has 1KC and the trump Q but this is not going to get you to 7.

 

With Control asks, after 3D:

 

3H 3NT (3NT shows 0533)

4C 4D (4C = control ask, 4D = 6 or less)

4H 5D (4H = where are they, 5D = all in D+C)

Note you still do not know precisely WHAT the controls are, but you have enough info to make 6C a playable contract.

 

The other possibility is one mentioned by Luis, and that is to set H and then make a SAB in C. That might get you to 7. I doubt whether I would have the wherewithall to do this at the table. My previous comment about planning the auction in advance is important. This is one reason I take umbrage at those who claim that there is no "plastic evaluation" involved in a relay system; that is just plain incorrect. This hand might actually be easier to bid playing standard.

 

The truth is you can't bid them all and I would be happy to get to 6C on this, particularly after dummy tracks.

 

Normally the 1H bid above by big clubber shows 19+, but because he has such an awkward hand it is probably better for him to ask rather than show 7-6s can't be shown).

 

If you decide to set C and ask for KC, you again have the problem of not knowing WHAT KC RR has.

 

 

Ron.

[hrothgar]

>1 step = all contols in 1 suit OR something in all

>2 steps = all in one and 2 (where 2 is the second longest)

>3 steps = all in 1 and 3

>4 steps = all in 2 and 3

 

That scheme looks fine if you are scanning over three suits

[5431, 6421, 5521, ...]

 

What if RR has 4432, 5332, 4333, 6332 shape?

The number of combinations explodes

[the hog]

No Richard, that scheme ONLY applies if RR has a singleton or void. Without a shortage denial cue bids proceed as per normal, ie longest next longest, with = length higher before lower etc etc.

[inquiry]

Ok...

 

This moscito thing is going to be difficult to play since everyone has a different version. Honeymoon, german, german-as-modified by luis, hog's version, Paul M's version, etc etc.

 

I think, perhaps honeymoon is too limited. I agree after looking at some hands that the CAB/SAB sequence in standard german moscito is not as good as changing to denial cuebidding. However, Luis, my understanding is that after the completion of the distribution, the next relay, in fact, ask for general controls (starting at 2 if 9+, 3 if 12+, and less if less points).

 

Since Luis, Ron, and hrothgar have all volunteered to offer Moscito lessions, I think perhpas in an effort to get some standardization, a single system should be agreed upon to teach the moscito students (like me). The german notes seem most clear to me, and much simplier to me, than hrothgar's. Ron's use of 1D as the positive response, might be ok, but I also like the familar use of relays that are useful in memorization. So I think you moscito guys should narrow down on a version that would come close to being "street" legal, and that is easy to learn. If you can agree and post that tehn we students could focus in on that one version and find partners on the BBO (either other students or one of the teachers).

 

Ben

[the hog]

Sounds fair. Probably german Moscito with its natural 1H/S is probably closes to being legal. There should be no problem in adding DCB 4D End signal and RKCB to this. OK Luis - you going to put some notes together and post them somewhere since you have the English pdf. (I only have theversion in German).

 

Ron

[Free]

Pffff, this moscito seems difficult! In my system, the bidding would go as follows:

 

3D(1) - 4H(2)

4S(3) - 4NT(4)

5S(5) - 7C

 

(1) pre-empt in H or FG 55+ with spades and a minor

(2) to play opposite a pre-empt

(3) FG 55+ with S-C

(4) rest asking bid

(5) void hearts

 

extra definitions about our FG 55+ opening:

1) maximum 1 loser in both suits together (or if you have more losers an outside ace or extra values)

2) -4LTC or better

So with KQ10 of clubs, you know partner has ace of diamonds or a void...

 

Short isn't it?