Fluffy Posted April 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 On this concrete hand the balancer had ♠AJxx and catched ♠K109xx in dummy. -570 was not a success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 On this concrete hand the balancer had ♠AJxx and catched ♠K109xx in dummy. -570 was not a success.Could you also give your hands? Something fishy is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Could you also give your hands? Something fishy is going on. Not fishy at all to me. I think people are underestimating the chances that they may have a big fit when both you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 spades. They are almost guaranteed to play in at worst a 4-3 fit. And people also underestimating their overall values when your side opens, other one responds and then makes a simple preference. They may easily be holding as much hcps as your side or a little less. It is hardly a surprise to me, but that does not mean we should play this double for take out. We should be able to punish them when they do not land on their feet. And we should also don't think they are dead cows just because they get in late like this. Only thing fishy to me is, if they had 5-4 fit how did our side double them for penalty. Was it a misunderstanding of the double or did we double them thinking each time they do this they are dead cows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Not fishy at all to me. I think people are underestimating the chances that they may have a big fit when both you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 spades. Not on my planet. Opener can have 4 and responder could have 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Only thing fishy to me is, if they had 5-4 fit how did our side double them for penalty. Was it a misunderstanding of the double or did we double them thinking each time they do this they are dead cows.That's what I meant. If opener had 3 spades as indeed he should have, what can responder have to pass with a singleton? With 5 clubs you should definitely pull, with 6 diamonds you shoulda bid 2d before, I guess partner could have a very bad 1354? But surely you're not going to pass the double with a double fit and a bad hand? Opener could have 2 spades I guess, but this is just me trying to guess, I don't think he can double with 2 spades (with a very good 2542 opener rebids 2NT the round before). When I wrote this I just realised that the simplest explanation is that they just had a misunderstanding. Opener thought he was doubling for takeout with 1543 and responder thought it was a penalty double and was happy to have Qxx as well. I now also see that you wrote the same thing in your post. Good job me reading posts I reply to. Oh well, gotta finish my episode of Elementary now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Not on my planet. Opener can have 4 and responder could have 3. You are correct, i should have said "when you and your pd are known to hold less than 3 card spades, most of the time" So one of the opponents can make a lucky guess. This lucky guess is actually an "educated guess" if your side has raised each other in hearts rather than simple preference. My point is, just because they made a delayed overcall in balancing situation, which they did not at 1 level when they had the ability to do so, does not mean they are completely morons, or should always be punished regardless of what we have in their suit. If you agree to play this double for penalties, it should be used because of some spade holdings and not because of the weird auction. It seems to me that Gonzalo and his pd either doubled them thinking that this auction should be punished, or they had a misunderstanding of the double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 For me it makes very little sense for this dble to be anything but t/o and extra values. What does a person do with 1543 sweet 16? With 1534 you can always bid 2NT for take-out. Don't double if you really don't want partner to pass. With 2524 I would mostly chicken out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 That's what I meant. If opener had 3 spades as indeed he should have, what can responder have to pass with a singleton? With 5 clubs you should definitely pull, with 6 diamonds you shoulda bid 2d before, I guess partner could have a very bad 1354? But surely you're not going to pass the double with a double fit and a bad hand? Opener could have 2 spades I guess, but this is just me trying to guess, I don't think he can double with 2 spades (with a very good 2542 opener rebids 2NT the round before). When I wrote this I just realised that the simplest explanation is that they just had a misunderstanding. Opener thought he was doubling for takeout with 1543 and responder thought it was a penalty double and was happy to have Qxx as well. I now also see that you wrote the same thing in your post. Good job me reading posts I reply to. Oh well, gotta finish my episode of Elementary now. Opener had singleotn spade, he actually was making a very bad move wih 1525, but the point was: could he have 1534?, the consensous seems to be that the answer is no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 With 1534 you can always bid 2NT for take-out. Don't double if you really don't want partner to pass. With 2524 I would mostly chicken out. But 2NT shows a 3523 14 count. :ph34r: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 But 2NT shows a 3523 14 count. :ph34r: not just any old boring 14 count but with reasonable heart intermediatesmaking 2n a real possibility of making. Keep on reading you will get there:):ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 not just any old boring 14 count but with reasonable heart intermediatesmaking 2n a real possibility of making. Keep on reading you will get there:):ph34r: In other words, a hand that has forgotten to open a strong no trump. :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 In other words, a hand that has forgotten to open a strong no trump. :P There is a rather large group of hands that fall into this category 14 counts are merely the top end but the main key is the heart suit that has strong potential to get 4 tricks opposite honor x. Having 2 spade stopsis also a pretty key ingredient since there are few if any reasonable1 spade stop hands where a 2n balance makes a lot of sense. KQT QJTxx Kx JTx no one would confuse for a 1n opener but it is a very reasonable 2n balance. The hands near the bottom range like this example would really hate to defend 2s and having to pass just because you are minimum would be a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 2nt is never to play. If it can't be an invite it must be artificial 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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