Elinescu-Wladow banned

[lamford]

Let's stop the rude posts and stick to the subject, or I'll close this thread.

Surely that is collective and unjust punishment. Are you not able to exclude the miscreants?

[blackshoe]

Don't argue with the director, Paul. B-)

[lamford]

I predict that they'll strip the offending pair of their title, but they won't change the result of the event. The rest of the German team will remain world champions.

If there is no appeal, or it is unsuccessful, then the result of the match should be changed. The offence is certainly worse than playing an ineligible player in a team game, when it is normal to award the entire match to the opposing side. Why do you think they won't change the result of the event? Any finals where there is proof should be handled the same way. Of course one cannot change the results of earlier rounds.

[Bbradley62]

Of course one cannot change the results of earlier rounds.

Really? Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tours de France, not just one; the NCAA stripped Penn State of 112 football wins, etc.

[gnasher]

Why do you think they won't change the result of the event?

 

Because it's easier, and they've probably had enough of making difficult decisions. It's also what they did in 2002 when a medal-winner refused a drug test.

[jallerton]

If there is no appeal, or it is unsuccessful, then the result of the match should be changed. The offence is certainly worse than playing an ineligible player in a team game, when it is normal to award the entire match to the opposing side. Why do you think they won't change the result of the event? Any finals where there is proof should be handled the same way. Of course one cannot change the results of earlier rounds.

 

 

Really? Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tours de France, not just one; the NCAA stripped Penn State of 112 football wins, etc.

 

I suspect Paul was referring to the fact that the organisers can't meaningfully change the result of e.g. the semi-final won by the German team. It's not practical for the final to be replayed between different teams six months later!

 

 

Because it's easier, and they've probably had enough of making diffiuclt decisions. It's also what they did in 2002 when a medal-winner refused a drug test.

 

The 2002 incident was rather different.

 

(i) Just because a player refused to take a drugs test, it does not necessarily follow that she was taking any illegal substances.

(ii) Even is she was, it's not likely that any such drugs would have improved her results.

 

Amongst other sports, there does not seem to be a consistent approach. In ice hockey, it seems that the rest of the team get to keep their medals when a player is banned. In athletics, if one member of a relay team is found to have taken drugs then the whole team loses their medals.

[bluecalm]

I predict that they'll strip the offending pair of their title, but they won't change the result of the event. The rest of the German team will remain world champions.

 

That would be very sad. I also think it's likely unfortunately. Me view is that all the titles involving them in last 10 years should be stripped at the very least. Probably the German federation should also pay big fines.

[rhm]

Why do you think they won't change the result of the event?

In my opinion this is not possible in knockout matches.

What about teams which were knocked out earlier due to the cheating pair?

From a logical point of view, the whole tournament and its results are irregular.

You can not simply change the result of the final

 

Rainer Herrmann

[trevahound]

In my opinion this is not possible in knockout matches.

What about teams which were knocked out earlier due to the cheating pair?

From a logical point of view, the whole tournament and its results are irregular.

You can not simply change the result of the final

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

You can certainly vacate the title. Allowing the teammates of proven cheaters (if that's how this ends after any appeals) to keep titles won in such a way is absurd on it's face. If it's too problematic to move up the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place teams one place each, at least vacate the title (ie Armstrong). Why would this even be controversial?

[the hog]

That would be very sad. I also think it's likely unfortunately. Me view is that all the titles involving them in last 10 years should be stripped at the very least. Probably the German federation should also pay big fines.

 

This is a very peculiar post. Pray tell, how can you strip them from titles where there was no evidence o f cheating? Secondly, why on earth should the German association pay big fines? Are you suggesting that the German association was complicit in the cheating actions? That is a very dangerous comment to make.

[rhm]

You can certainly vacate the title. Allowing the teammates of proven cheaters (if that's how this ends after any appeals) to keep titles won in such a way is absurd on it's face. If it's too problematic to move up the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place teams one place each, at least vacate the title (ie Armstrong). Why would this even be controversial?

It is not. I said the results look irregular. This suggests such action.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[peterh]

Things are a little bit different when everyone can check enough of the evidence by themselves.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/livebridgewebcam1

 

Anybody know the Session # Brd #s in each video ?

[szgyula]

A slightly different issue:

 

http://www.bridge-verband.de/web/news/3028

 

This is from the DBV president, who happens to be a team member of the pair accused -- with his gold medal also being on the line. Can someone shed some light on this apparently official DBV document? What is the "internal investigation" they refer to, as opposed to a disciplinary hearing that would be more typical in a situation like this? What is the legal basis for this in DBV land? How can a team-mate be involved in this? Who presented the "other side" during the internal investigation? What evidence was available to them? Where is the protocol of this?

 

The statements of Wenning make it quite clear that these statements represent the unbiased and fair concludion of the DBV following a thorough and fair investigation. Obviously, somebody is clearly distoring the truth as based on the same evidence, WBF reached the "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" conclusion, while the DBV reached the "suspicion of deceit was not confirmed" conclusion.

 

What troubles me is the unusual DBV approach (i.e. not a normal disciplinary process) and the lack of independent DBV officials in the DBV process. I fully support Ulrich Wenning in presenting his opinion, helping his teammates, etc. -- as an individual. I have serious concerns with him doing this as the DBV president.

 

What do you think? What is really happening in Germany?

[bluecalm]

This is a very peculiar post. Pray tell, how can you strip them from titles where there was no evidence o f cheating? Secondly, why on earth should the German association pay big fines? Are you suggesting that the German association was complicit in the cheating actions? That is a very dangerous comment to make.

 

They've sent cheaters to international competition ruining it for everyone else involved. If we don't punish federations and teammates for that (by at least stripping a lot of titles) then there are incentives in place to send cheaters in. This is similar to punishing football clubs if their fans misbehave (which is standard procedure): the club pay the fines and is possibly banned for some time even. Here it's even worse: it's the very team you chose and sent to the competition which cheated and ruined it for everyone else. If you are not making federation responsible for who they send to international competition you are just asking for it.

[helene_t]

Unlike football fans, cheating bridge players tend not to kill the kibitzers. Other than that I agree

[aguahombre]

I see a difference between sending cheaters to international competition and sending players who subsequently are determined to have cheated.

 

I would think you'd need a separate set of charges and a separate ruling to determine prior knowledge/complicity.

 

While it is true the GBF was named as a defendant here, it seems that was only a matter of form so that the WBF could require the NBO to comply with the decision.

 

Mr. Hog is right. This is a dangerous topic. Also, not all international competition is set up where teams are representing an NBO.

 

We might end up requiring a level of scrutiny in advance which NBO's cannot possibly meet.

[barmar]

I would think you'd need a separate set of charges and a separate ruling to determine prior knowledge/complicity.

I think the analogy with football clubs being fined for misbehavior of fans was intended to show that complicity is not necessary in other spheres.

 

I can't find the justification for fining the clubs -- is there something they could have done to prevent their fans from getting violent? Are they "fanning the flames"? Is it because they encourage beer drinking during the games (but there have been riots at games in the Middle East, and I doubt there's much intoxication in Muslim countries). Maybe that policy is intended to be some kind of indirect deterrant. Fans who are so obsessive that they riot might feel a kinship with the team, and take it personally if the team is fined.

 

Whatever the justification, I doubt it has a parallel in a situation like this. However, perhaps the punishment could be for negligence: GBF should have been able to figure out that these guys were cheaters, and was not dilligent enough to catch them. This could be particularly valid if there have been past complaints about E-W, and GBF didn't take them seriously.

[bluecalm]

Whatever the justification, I doubt it has a parallel in a situation like this. However, perhaps the punishment could be for negligence: GBF should have been able to figure out that these guys were cheaters, and was not dilligent enough to catch them. This could be particularly valid if there have been past complaints about E-W, and GBF didn't take them seriously.

 

My point is that there is no way that WBF or any other international body police all the 200 (or w/e the number is) local federations. The only sane solution is to make federations responsible for sending teams which play according to the rules and take the consequences if they don't. It put incentives in the right place as well: it's not profitable to turn a blind eye on cheating either as a federation or as other pairs in the team.

If there is no responsibility on other pairs they won't act. Acting/whistle blowing is often social suicide and you fight the uphill battle against often well established players with basically nothing to win. It won't happen if incentives (you lose medals/right to compete) aren't there. If on the other hand the federation faces say one year ban for incidents that blatant people are going to have incentives in place to keep the team clean.

And let's be honest, if you play hundreds of boards with someone in one team you have to be really negligent to not notice something fishy when your partners regularly make magical leads/bids.

[olegru]

I believe better analogy would be to compare with soccer or other teams game if doping test of one of the players got positive after the game. Do they punish club (other than count game as lost) or not? I don't know the answer.

[Trinidad]

I believe better analogy would be to compare with soccer or other teams game if doping test of one of the players got positive after the game. Do they punish club (other than count game as lost) or not? I don't know the answer.

I think that you are on the right track, but maybe we should look for a sport where a "contestant" is about half or a third of the team, instead of 1/16th. In soccer, one could say that it has little consequence whether one player used PEDs, but when half or one third of the team is cheating (as is the case in bridge teams) that has quite an impact on the team performance.

 

I could think of tennis/badminton doubles (often played as knock-outs), beach volleyball, relays (swimming, cycling, running, ...), bob sleigh, rowing, curling, synchronized duo sports (diving, trampoline, ...), ... Maybe somebody knows what rules are used in some of these sports.

 

Perhaps tag team wrestling is not a good analogy. :D

 

Rik

[bluecalm]

I believe better analogy would be to compare with soccer or other teams game if doping test of one of the players got positive after the game. Do they punish club (other than count game as lost) or not? I don't know the answer.

 

Doping is not fair comparison to what they did.

While doping is against the rules and give you advantage it doesn't kill the game right away, especially in games like football where there are 11 players from one team on the pitch. THis is more similar to bribing the arbiter to give you several penalties or knocking players from opposing team down when the arbiter is not looking. Maybe putting electronic device in a ball which makes it miss the goalposts would be in similar category. What they did is offence against very essence of the game. It's basically the same as playing boards you already know and managed to smuggle as official boards.

 

In bridge information is everythign. If am allowed to have a few illegal signals here and there I would be the best player in the world by long mile. In tennis if I am allowed to use w/e PED' there are I will maybe beat some people I usually lose to and that's it.

[Cascade]

Doping is not fair comparison to what they did.

While doping is against the rules and give you advantage it doesn't kill the game right away, especially in games like football where there are 11 players from one team on the pitch. THis is more similar to bribing the arbiter to give you several penalties or knocking players from opposing team down when the arbiter is not looking. Maybe putting electronic device in a ball which makes it miss the goalposts would be in similar category. What they did is offence against very essence of the game. It's basically the same as playing boards you already know and managed to smuggle as official boards.

 

In bridge information is everythign. If am allowed to have a few illegal signals here and there I would be the best player in the world by long mile. In tennis if I am allowed to use w/e PED' there are I will maybe beat some people I usually lose to and that's it.

 

Seems like a better comparison than you say to me.

 

A little extra information gives bridge players an advantage.

 

A little extra strength or stamina or alertness gives an athlete an advantage.

 

It doesn't appear these guys were the best players in the world and certainly not by a mile.

[Cascade]

My point is that there is no way that WBF or any other international body police all the 200 (or w/e the number is) local federations. The only sane solution is to make federations responsible for sending teams which play according to the rules and take the consequences if they don't. It put incentives in the right place as well: it's not profitable to turn a blind eye on cheating either as a federation or as other pairs in the team.

If there is no responsibility on other pairs they won't act. Acting/whistle blowing is often social suicide and you fight the uphill battle against often well established players with basically nothing to win. It won't happen if incentives (you lose medals/right to compete) aren't there. If on the other hand the federation faces say one year ban for incidents that blatant people are going to have incentives in place to keep the team clean.

And let's be honest, if you play hundreds of boards with someone in one team you have to be really negligent to not notice something fishy when your partners regularly make magical leads/bids.

 

This seems flawed reasoning to me. Often I play whole events with relatively little discussion of what happened at the other table. Perhaps we talk about a few interesting hands. Typically I concentrate on the hands where I perceive we could have done better at our table and just getting comparison from the other table as a point of reference.

[ArtK78]

If you have a friend or respected bridge acquaintance who is playing on a team with a person or a pair that you suspect of unethical behavior, it stands to reason that you would talk with your friend about it sooner or later.

 

From what I understand, W & E were under suspicion from a large segment of the bridge playing world for some time. Surely this did not escape the notice of the German Bridge Federation or W & E's teammates. Yet they continued to play with them and allow them to represent Germany in international competition.

 

I don't believe that the teammates or the German Bridge Federation should be held without responsibility here. It is one thing to state that the German Bridge Federation is without any involvment in W & E's conduct, and that W & Es teammates are entirely free and clear of any suspicion of unethical conduct. It is another to say they are totally free of any responsibility.

 

I have played with an individual who I later found out was guilty of unethical behavior in bridge (for which he had previously been penalized) and has been accused of cheating in another mind game (more than accused - tried and convicted in the court of popular opinion). I have not played with him since I found out about this. But, then again, I have not seen him in quite some time.

 

I also have a friend who has been told in no uncertain terms by a number of very highly respected bridge players that an individual with whom he plays with as a teammate is, shall we say, of less than sterling character. Yet my friend continues to play on teams with this individual. I can't explain it.

[paulg]

From what I understand, W & E were under suspicion from a large segment of the bridge playing world for some time. Surely this did not escape the notice of the German Bridge Federation or W & E's teammates. Yet they continued to play with them and allow them to represent Germany in international competition.

 

I don't believe that the teammates or the German Bridge Federation should be held without responsibility here. It is one thing to state that the German Bridge Federation is without any involvment in W & E's conduct, and that W & Es teammates are entirely free and clear of any suspicion of unethical conduct. It is another to say they are totally free of any responsibility.

If the USBF suspected an American pair of cheating but they had never been convicted, or even charged, with the offence, do you think they would be able to bar them from international trials without being sued?