wank Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 people have known something was rotten for 10 years or so. i played against them in the german cup in bonn and rearranged all my screenmate's bidding cards on the tray before i let them push the tray through - we maxed out that match. as for the dbv, of course they've been turning a blind eye to it for years, but to be fair to them, they were in a dubious situation. banning them, even unofficially, without working out exactly what they were doing would put them in trouble legally. more damned in my eyes are the rest of the german team who were happy to play with them. compare that with the current situation in israel where one very successful player is ostracised by a large proportion of the rest of the top players there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Care to state what those serious problems are? Quite right. Being told (or knowing) what to look for is fundamental. There is no indication that people were told what to find or what not to look for. I thought I did. Holding the hearing in the US and offering a video conference. I am not sure how experienced you are with vc. I can tell you, and I am sure you can work out for yourself, that a vc is nowhere near as effective as being able to present your case ftf.I also commented on some of the evidence being self serving. Finally I still think the observer should not have been told what to look for. I bet, and I am not being disrespectful to you, that if someone told me a means by which you were cheating that I would be able to find instances of it in my own mind, even though you were guilty of nothing.Just as a matter of interest: I played against this pair in a regional tournament in Germany some years ago. I found their manner relatively unpleasant, but that was it.They were curt and said nothing as we sat down and said hello. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Assume this pair are guilty, I don't know, but why does it take until they get to a world championship final before they are investigated? It didn't. It took until they got to a world championship final before they were caught. You'll see from Donna Compton's Complaint that the pair had been "extensively monitored in 2008 and 2009 to no avail". Maybe they should have started monitoring earlier during the D'Orsi Bowl, but gossip amongst the players doesn't necessarily reach the directing staff, so it probably needed an official approach from the US NPC to get their attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 So what about their "victory" by 11 imps in the 2013 d'Orsi Trophy? Will the WBF strip them of the title? Will USA2 be named the winners?I predict that they'll strip the offending pair of their title, but they won't change the result of the event. The rest of the German team will remain world champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Few quick comments here: 1. Once the WBF has a strong case that a pair is cheating, it seems reasonable to take action as soon as is practical. I could be convinced that the actual prosecution could be delayed. However, it makes sense to treat this all expeditiously. In a similar vein, I'd rather If the WBF were to schedule a separate meeting, it seems right 2. With respect to the claims of institutional bias: I don't think that you can disqualify individuals from the United States participating in this process based on the fact that this was brought up by an American. I'd hope that individuals could get over any kind of National bias, particularly on a incident that will draw a lot of public scrutiny. 3. I don't see any alternative to informing the observer to watch and record coughing. This is key information that needs to be captured. 4. Said it before, I'll say it again. We need to transition away from pasteboard and play major events on computers with the players separated from one another. Lots of benefits wrt Vugraph and it will prevent issues like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Arend, I am curious to know why you make this statement. Do you have information others on this site may not have regarding their reputation?A few things concern me. The case was held in the US . Why not in Europe? Some of the evidence presented is lame to say the least and has in one case, nothing to do with coughing. eg, the ridiculous Spade bid which went 4 off. This is an egregious beginners error to bid spades here.Finally, as Cascade points out, it is surely incorrect to tell the observer what to look for. This is not the way evidence should be gathered. I have never played against them.The first time I read about them was when they fought a long appeal's process (the appeal was considered after the event, and then there was a National appeal's board to which they could appeal the appeal's decision). Their case was based on claiming "no agreement" in an auction where I had a clear agreement with my partner. I bet you would have an agreement if you had a regular partnership. Note Wladow-Elinescu have been playing together for ages, using their own homegrown system. So it was basically documented officially (for anyone who understands the meaning of "high-level partnership") that this is a pair with highly questionable ethics. But if you had forced me to bet, I would always have bet that they are outright cheaters. Why? They play a lot of 2-way openings (e.g. Fantunes-style 2M bids), but seemed to have an impressive track record (basically bridge-gothic level) of never playing ridiculous contracts as a result (i.e., they are apparently much better bidders than Fantunes). I am German, and I was always rooting for the German women's team, and against the German open team... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diana_eva Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Traian's livestream channel used to provide live video streaming from Bali was paid for several months to keep the videos on archive, but after the payments stopped the videos were deleted (by livestream). However Traian still has some of those saved on his computer and he will upload on youtube. He'll post several of the German team's recordings here: https://www.youtube....vebridgewebcam1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have never played against them.The first time I read about them was when they fought a long appeal's process (the appeal was considered after the event, and then there was a National appeal's board to which they could appeal the appeal's decision). Their case was based on claiming "no agreement" in an auction where I had a clear agreement with my partner. I bet you would have an agreement if you had a regular partnership. Note Wladow-Elinescu have been playing together for ages, using their own homegrown system. So it was basically documented officially (for anyone who understands the meaning of "high-level partnership") that this is a pair with highly questionable ethics. But if you had forced me to bet, I would always have bet that they are outright cheaters. Why? They play a lot of 2-way openings (e.g. Fantunes-style 2M bids), but seemed to have an impressive track record (basically bridge-gothic level) of never playing ridiculous contracts as a result (i.e., they are apparently much better bidders than Fantunes). I am German, and I was always rooting for the German women's team, and against the German open team...Fair enough and thanks for the reply. I knew nothing about their "reputation". I just didn't like their table manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 people have known something was rotten for 10 years or so. i played against them in the german cup in bonn and rearranged all my screenmate's bidding cards on the tray before i let them push the tray through - we maxed out that match. as for the dbv, of course they've been turning a blind eye to it for years, but to be fair to them, they were in a dubious situation. banning them, even unofficially, without working out exactly what they were doing would put them in trouble legally. more damned in my eyes are the rest of the german team who were happy to play with them. compare that with the current situation in israel where one very successful player is ostracised by a large proportion of the rest of the top players there.I am a member of the DBV and to make it clear I am not a great fan of the DBV. However, to my knowledge this is the first incident where a prominent pair of the DBV has been accused of cheating. I believe cheating exists but is rare. I also claim until I see proof to the contrary that the rest of the German team in Bali including the captain (Karen Schroeder) were totally unaware of this.Of course anybody can decide for him/herself with whom you play in a partnership or in a team. The pair Wladow_Elinescu in general was contentious, but more because Wladow has an extravagant temperament. But if cheating is a problem, I am sure false allegations, nurtured by envy and jealousy, are one as well and anybody with an open eye can see how quickly rumours are taken as facts. I much prefer to wait for solid evidence like here rather than supporting mob law and vigilantism of self-appointed judges. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 However, to my knowledge this is the first incident where a prominent pair of the DBV has been accused of cheating. they were accused of cheating many times, though perhaps not backed up with sufficient evidence for the authorities to do anything, and very possibly those complaining were at fault for doing so only amongst themselves instead of making an official submission. it's awkward to be the first person to put one's head above the parapet in such situations, so one must give kudos to the american team here. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I much prefer to wait for solid evidence like here rather than supporting mob law and vigilantism of self-appointed judges. Sure, you are free to make that choice. Personally, I would choose not to play with teammates with at best highly questionable ethics. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendypmi Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I am glad the WBF have imposed a justifiably stiff penalty. It is cheating at all levels which spoils the game for the innocent majority of players and it must be seen to be stamped out. I hope the German Bridge federation will simply drop the offenders like hot bricks and that we hear no more about it.The WBF need to update their website, to show USA2 as the winners and why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Sure, you are free to make that choice. Personally, I would choose not to play with teammates with at best highly questionable ethics.I did not claim I prefer teammates of highly questionable ethics or that I do not care. This was not my point, but this reaction is typical. There may have been rumours at the international level. I was not aware of them, but frankly it also sounds a bit like hindsight.It seems to be a common theme ("we always knew") whenever a pair has been found guilty of cheating. I have never played with them and it is many years I last played boards against them. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 The WBF need to update their website, to show USA2 as the winners and why!Maybe they need to do that, but I have seen no indication it will happen; I doubt USA2 expects it to happen; and, I can't find a precedent where it did happen in Bridge. Please show me to be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 it's awkward to be the first person to put one's head above the parapet in such situations, so one must give kudos to the american team here.Indeed. It is not the first time an American has been the catalyst, but IMO it is the first time one has done it with class. Eddie Wold (might want to change his initials) seems to have proceeded in much better form than those in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 There may have been rumours at the international level. I was not aware of them, but frankly it also sounds a bit like hindsight.It seems to be a common theme ("we always knew") whenever a pair has been found guilty of cheating.I am not sure how you get the idea this was hindsight. Should I have made a post on BBF accusing them of cheating? I happen to remember the last time I had a conversation about the German senior team in a pub. My first reaction was to bring up Wladow-Elinescu, and say something like "They have highly questionable ethics at best, and people I respect very much have a worse opinion on them." The person I talked to just nodded knowingly, and we changed the topic. While I am German, I have played very little bridge in Germany. I find it hard to believe that I knew more about them than top-level German players. (Of course, I did not know them personally, and maybe in that case that made it easier for me to come to conclusion.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I did not claim I prefer teammates of highly questionable ethics or that I do not care. This was not my point, but this reaction is typical. My point is this: to anybody with open eyes it was obvious that they had highly questionable ethics. So while their teammates could not know they were playing with cheaters, they did knowingly choose teammates who bend the rules of full disclosure, etc. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 We are skating very close to the thin ice, here, with respect to Forum policy..when we speculate about team members who have not been the subject of any official action I am aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 We are skating very close to the thin ice, here, with respect to Forum policy..when we speculate about team members who have not been the subject of any official action I am aware of.What forum policies are you concerned about? I did not make any speculation about their team members, and did not accuse them of anything that would warrant an official action. If I made a post stating that I don't understand how X could partner with Y despite Y's well-known rude table manners, would that also count as "speculation" and "on thin ice with respect to Forum policy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 And another appears to be from Pakistan. So Nigel was wrong about twice as many of them as he was right about. It doesnt really matter. If one judge is biased or even could be seen to be biased then that is enough to taint an entire panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 The case as presented seems pretty clear-cut. Although holding the committee in the US wasn't best for avoiding appearances of inequity, it's hard to imagine what this pair's defense could be. The thing that always bothers me in these cases is wondering how prevalent cheating is at the upper echelons. Every time a pair gets caught, it seems they have been under suspicion for years and years. Often the pairs that get caught are doing something pretty blatant and honestly kind of dumb. It makes me wonder how many top flight pairs are "under investigation" at any given time, and how many simply have a more subtle way to cheat. Really a sad situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I don't think cheating is that common. If I were cheating, the fear of getting caught would make me so nervous that I wouldn't be able to play. I think it takes a psychopath to cheat effectively 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oof Arted Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 It doesnt really matter. If one judge is biased or even could be seen to be biased then that is enough to taint an entire panel. Wayne are you really suggesting that as the affair was between a team from the USA and a Team from Germany that Judges from the USA should not be used ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 What forum policies are you concerned about? I did not make any speculation about their team members, and did not accuse them of anything that would warrant an official action. If I made a post stating that I don't understand how X could partner with Y despite Y's well-known rude table manners, would that also count as "speculation" and "on thin ice with respect to Forum policy"?You are probably right. I was thinking about the Laws/rulings fora, where the mods of those threads discourage naming involved parties other than the OP's themselves --even discouraging sufficient information so that an astute reader could figure out the others involved. The threads which mentioned the teammates of Sion/Cokin here and elsewhere have come nowhere near suggesting that any of the teammates might have been aware of what was going on with the offending pair. Here, and now, there appear to be such suggestions and that seemed to be a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 My concern is just... This pair has been around for ages. They have been playing in major international events for ages. They have been (presumably) cheating for at least six years. Their method of cheating via coughing seems pretty dumb and not very subtle. This sequence of events just doesn't inspire great confidence in our ability to catch cheaters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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