A beginner's mistake?

[avoscill]

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I have been heavily critisized by my team-mates for a defensive play which they decidingly judged as an error that only a beginner could make. We were playing IMPs, against opponents unknown to me. I led the ♦A, and, on my partner's encouraging high spot, the nine, I continued with the ♦K. With dummy's menacing club suit, I was clearly in a cash-out situation. It remainded to spot where our winners were. I decided to believe partner and played my last diamond - ruffed by declarer.

 

They said I ougth to know that the ♥A was with East: South would not simply jump to game holding a side ace, they argued, and partner did overcall in hearts. On the other side, I reasoned, our fourth trick could well be a natural trump trick, if only East had any singleton spade honour, in which case I had hurridly to play a diamond to partner's queen.

 

Was my reasoning so faulty? Shouldn't my partner give me a discouraging signal, since he could see that declared held two diamond cards (from bare AK, we lead the king)?

[TylerE]

Honestly, I would lead K!H at trick one and consider it obvious at IMPs. In the position I switch to a [h]. For one, look at your hand! That club suit isn't that menacing. Declarer might get as many as 2 pitches...but if he does he has LOTS of red cards and our tricks aren't going anywhere.

[sfi]

Was my reasoning so faulty? Shouldn't my partner give me a discouraging signal, since he could see that declared held two diamond cards (from bare AK, we lead the king)?

 

That seems perfectly logical given your lead convention. With Axxxx in hearts and Qxxxx in diamonds, encouraging diamonds looks like a mistake.

[aguahombre]

With a mere 7-count and 5-5 reds, partner can take some charge for his 1H bid instead of the two-suited 2N. Oh, you play that it shows the minors??

[kuhchung]

Honestly, I would lead K!H at trick one and consider it obvious at IMPs. In the position I switch to a [h]. For one, look at your hand! That club suit isn't that menacing. Declarer might get as many as 2 pitches...but if he does he has LOTS of red cards and our tricks aren't going anywhere.

 

seems pretty menacing when declarer takes 7 spades and 3 clubs before we take 4 red

[kenberg]

I also would probably lead the ♥K at trick 1, but for the purposes of you problem suppose that I did not. Suppose I lead the ♦A. Dummy hits. Unless partner shows out of diamonds, I am switching to the King of hearts at trick 2. I am not assuming that partner overcalled hearts on a suit headed by the Jack. You have the diamonds, dummy has the clubs, declarer has the spades, parnter overcalled hearts, I really think it is safe to play him for the Ace.

 

Now it is up to partner. With four to the Q in the dummy, partner does not have an attitude about hearts, he has a count. Assuming that W has a second heart to continue the suit with, he needs to know if he should. The Ace will cash of the overcall was on five, not cash of the overcall was on 6. So E gives count.

 

Now should your partner have discouraged diamonds? Yes, I think so. With his five card suit there is a severe danger of exactly what occurred. So I think you should have gotten this right, but he could have helped.

[MrAce]

Deleted.

 

I thought you were trying to give ruff to pd with 3rd ♦

 

Now rereading your original post, i think your teammates are right about ♥ A. AQJxxxx AKJxxxx AKQxxx KQJxxxx trumps + side A is way too much for 4♠ bid. And even if declarer has, a big IF, the ♥ A, you need some miracle and very specific hand to construct to defeat 4♠ which also should look reasonable with 4♠ bid.

 

I would not call it a beginners mistake. I think you over thought this defense.And pd could have done better in signalling perhaps given your agreement.

[the hog]

Leading the HK at trick one is highly amusing. I think you should switch at trick 3 though.

[kuhchung]

Is partner's second diamond count? That would really help too.

 

On the shift, if you know no more diamonds are cashing, isn't it right to shift to a small heart? If you shift to K, partner might overtake and try to give you a ruff edit oh oops never mind, maybe this isn't true

[aguahombre]

Leading the HK at trick one is highly amusing. I think you should switch at trick 3 though.

Exactly...that would get the spade promotion OP was concerned about, if one existed, also.

[Cyberyeti]

I think leading A♦ is right, there are some layouts where K♥ is crushingly wrong particularly where dummy has stiff small spade or a void.

 

Once you see dummy and the 10♠ is there, it seems very unlikely K♥ can be wrong. Otherwise you can underlead K♦ at trick 2, partner won't have 6 so the second one isn't getting ruffed and he appears to have the Q for his encourage signal as declarer is not likely to have 5 so it's unlikely partner's looking for a ruff.

 

I suppose it's just about possible declarer had KQJ to 7 spades, a doubleton diamond and A♥ and you needed a trump promotion on the 4th round of diamonds when partner takes his stiff A♠ to beat this but it doesn't look like good odds.

[mike777]

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I have been heavily critisized by my team-mates for a defensive play which they decidingly judged as an error that only a beginner could make. We were playing IMPs, against opponents unknown to me. I led the ♦A, and, on my partner's encouraging high spot, the nine, I continued with the ♦K. With dummy's menacing club suit, I was clearly in a cash-out situation. It remainded to spot where our winners were. I decided to believe partner and played my last diamond - ruffed by declarer.

 

They said I ougth to know that the ♥A was with East: South would not simply jump to game holding a side ace, they argued, and partner did overcall in hearts. On the other side, I reasoned, our fourth trick could well be a natural trump trick, if only East had any singleton spade honour, in which case I had hurridly to play a diamond to partner's queen.

 

Was my reasoning so faulty? Shouldn't my partner give me a discouraging signal, since he could see that declared held two diamond cards (from bare AK, we lead the king)?

 

I think the most important question you ask is why did partner ask you to continue D? At the very least it is worth the time to discuss the issue with partner of what you request and why at trick one. Switch in Time a classic book discusses this issue in depth.

[wank]

a lot of resulting ***** above.

 

what you did was fine.

 

leading the k of h would be terrible.

 

as for switching, whilst declarer shouldn't have the heart for his bidding, that's certainly not the same thing as saying he doesn't have it - i'm going to shock some other posters here: some opponents don't bid perfectly. yes, really.

 

partner knows it's definitely wrong to continue diamonds and shouldn't have encouraged, though it's an easy error to make.

[Mbodell]

I think the ♦A is a good lead. I think partner's encouraging diamond is very questionable. Partner should really only encourage with the doubleton I think (but you know that seems unlikley since that would give the 4♠ bidder 5 diamonds. And with Q-fifth he should definitely be discouraging since your A is likely from AKx, AKxx, or Ax and with two of those he doesn't want a continue. And seeing dummy you know partner has and overcall with at most 2 points in the minor. If he does't have the heart A, he must have a couple of spade honors and you'll get a couple of spade tricks (but really the A is like 98+% likely there). So I agree with everyone that the switch to the heart king is obvious. But I also agree that partner discouraging is also obvious.

[aguahombre]

I still believe the count issue in the reds should have been resolved in the auction, making this whole thing a rocking chair situation. Leader then only has to know whether his partner has five or six diamonds ---revealed by his count signal on the high Diamond lead at trick one. The King (not the Ace) would be led in partner's suit.

 

Accordingly West with only three Diamonds can cash the second Diamond if East says it is cashing, and can then switch to hearts.

[MrAce]

Sigh...leading ♥ K when you hold AKx suit, just because your pd overcalled at 1 level ?

 

I think people underestimate the advantages of defending after dummy appears.

[ayebee]

If you have a partnership agreement to play A for count and K for attitude (or vice versa) then request count - that way you know whether Partner has odd or even count in the suit. This may not be conclusive on this layout though. It's risky with the jack in dummy but how about East throwing the Q under the Ace of diamonds. Partner cannot go wrong then.

[kenberg]

Sigh...leading ♥ K when you hold AKx suit, just because your pd overcalled at 1 level ?

 

I think people underestimate the advantages of defending after dummy appears.

 

OK, I agree. I start with a diamond. Partner encourages. What do I make of this? Perhaps he has six heart, is worried I might have three, and thinks we should take as many diamonds as possible and then hope for a trump trick? But is this really possible? He has nothing in clubs, apparently the ♦Q but nothing elsi in that suit , and on the bidding he has not much in spades. I think he has a 2♥ if he has six. So he has five, and I really think he has the ace.

 

And now that I have convinced myself that he has five hearts, and I should hope the ace of hearts, it all seems clear enough. Take my two diamonds, ♥K, small ♥.

[billw55]

Partner ... has nothing in clubs, apparently the ♦Q but nothing elsi in that suit , and on the bidding he has not much in spades. I think he has a 2♥ if he has six. So he has five, and I really think he has the ace.

 

And now that I have convinced myself that he has five hearts, and I should hope the ace of hearts, it all seems clear enough. Take my two diamonds, ♥K, small ♥.

Agree with this, on the auction and dummy the heart position is pretty clear. If partner lacks the ace, he is a total loon.

[kenberg]

Aqua asked, early on, just why this modest 5-5 hand did not start with 2NT over 1♣. It's a fair question. Further, OP is right that his partner, holding Q fifth, surely knew that it was not possible to cash three rounds of diamonds. When someone says "You made a beginner's mistake" that person has to be ready for questions like these.

 

So it seems two hearts are cashing, and first I had better cash both diamonds just to be sure we get them. Yes, OP should probably get this right but his partner might look to his own play as well. Recognizing one's own mistakes is far more profitable than dwelling on partner's. If I recognize my mistake then I, all on my own, can work to make fewer of them in the future.

[Windboe]

Can your P can have K,Jxxxx,Qxxxx,xx for an overcall?

In this case I would search a new P.

In the other case you have the smaller part of the blame.

But the lion's share of the fault takes your P.

He has to talk you out the third !D. He is the boss. He gives you the direction first, in second line the information.

Worse, seeing the !C menace - not knowing that you stop it - he has to signal ...not a Q, but the urgency to switch to !H.

 

The bid and the signal inform me, that your P likes the vagueness.

Not a Partner for me.

[kenberg]

Late breaking news, 1:30 pm EDT

 

Watching the Vandy on Vugraph i just heard Roland explaining that Fantoni "holds the record" by once overcalling on five to the Jack and an outside Queen!

 

When I learn to play the cards like Fantoni, maybe I will do that too.

[kuhchung]

also, your teammates don't sound very nice

[neilkaz]

Can your P can have K,Jxxxx,Qxxxx,xx for an overcall?

In this case I would search a new P.

In the other case you have the smaller part of the blame.

But the lion's share of the fault takes your P.

He has to talk you out the third !D. He is the boss. He gives you the direction first, in second line the information.

Worse, seeing the !C menace - not knowing that you stop it - he has to signal ...not a Q, but the urgency to switch to !H.

 

The bid and the signal inform me, that your P likes the vagueness.

Not a Partner for me.

Welcome to the forums and a very nice first post that I agree with.

[avoscill]

With a mere 7-count and 5-5 reds, partner can take some charge for his 1H bid instead of the two-suited 2N. Oh, you play that it shows the minors??

 

We indeed play that 2NT shows the lowest unbid suits. So, he could have bid it, thus saving me from future "shifting" problems :rolleyes: . Even at favourable vulnerability, he probably judged his 7 hcp hand too light. And, yes, seeing the♥Q in dummy, I should have shown more thrust in the quality of his overcalls, instead of punishing him for his thoughtless signalling.