When can Benji Acol 2C/2D be passed below game?

[Liversidge]

Playing Benji Acol, my understanding is that you can only pass a 2C opening if partner responds to your 2D relay with 2NT. Is this the case? If so, what would you recommend for these responder hands?

 

2C - 2D - 3C - ? with ♠xxxx ♥Jxx ♦Kxxx ♣xx

2C - 2D - 2H - ? with ♠xxx ♥x ♦Kxxx ♣Jxxxx

 

Also, I gather that a 2D opening is forcing to game, regardless of responder's 2H denial response. If so, what would you recommend for a hand like this?

 

2D - 2H - 3D - ? with ♠Jxxxx ♥x ♦x ♣Jxxxxx

[helene_t]

Many club players play 2♣ as almost-GF and 2♦ as GF. In that style, any rebid by opener after 2♣ opening can be passed, you might even take a view and pass the 2♣ opening itself with something like x-x-xxxx-xxxxxxx.

 

But I don't think that is the best way of playing it. Especially when opener has a gf hand with hearts it is awkward to have to open 2♦ since the rebid will be 3♥ which takes away too much bidding space. So I would suggest that at least the 2♥ rebid should be forcing for one round. The auction

2♣*-2♦*

2♥-2NT*

3♥

can then be passed if responder is absolutely broke, while

2♣*-2♦*

2♥-2NT*

3♦

shows a gf two-suited hand (red suits in this case) and

2♦*-2♥*

3♥

shows a gf one-suited hand.

 

With you example hands I would bid:

1: 3♦. Even if 3♣ is not forcing I am too strong to pass.

2: 3♣. 2NT is OK also but I don't want to hog the hand in no-trumps. In any case, don't pass, even if 2♥ is nonforcing. You are strong enough for game.

3: 3♠. If 3♦ was nonforcing I would pass but obviously it is forcing.

[Liversidge]

Many thanks.

If hand 1 was 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♣ - ? with ♠xxxxx ♥Jxxxx ♦xx ♣x would you bid, 3♠ or maybe 3NT? (given that the only 'pass' option before game is supposed to be 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT - pass with 0-2 HCP.)

 

My partner and I play in a club where most of the players are rather more advanced than we are. Sometimes my partner is away and I pair up with someone else. Benji Weak Twos is the most popular system. When I look up references to it I find there are several variations. Some say 22-23 HCP and 8 playing tricks (9 in a minor), others say 18-22 HCP and 8 clear cut tricks. Some say you just need enough HCP for a 1 level opening and 8 playing tricks. Some say 2♦is a mandatory relay, others say it is negative. But they all seem to say that if opener bids on at the 3 level then you mustn't stop short of game, and I don't want to pass and then be reminded of this, or bid on and be asked why I didn't pass on practically a bust. If I can just satisfy myself that on a hand like this I still have to bid and that all systems have their failings and this is just one of them, then I can relax and just make the bid.

[helene_t]

What is the difference between

2♣-2♦

3♣

 

and

 

2♦-2♥

3♣?

 

I think almost all club players play the first as nonforcing and the second as forcing. Personally I would prefer to play them both as forcing, just showing different shapes, but that is not Benji.

 

So I think you can pass and that's what I would do.

 

By the way, my advice would be not to play Benji. They come up too infrequently to be worth the hassle of sorting out the details. 2♣ as any strong hand and 2♦ as natural and weak is better and simpler.

[Liversidge]

Thanks!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

a simple Benji 2C opening showes a hand, that needs 1 trick from partner to

make game, .

Hence after 2C - 2D, a 2H / 2S / 2NT / 3C / 3D, responder can pass or, after

2NT use transfer to get out in 3M.

 

A trick would be a King or better, i.e. your sample hands are enough, and you

are just looking for the right game.

 

If you bid over openers response (except after 2NT / transfer), you set up a

game forcing auction.

 

What to bid? 5 cards majors are great, 4 card minors with an honor as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[RMB1]

I think you have to understand that just by asking these questions and thinking about these sequences, you understand more about the 2C/2D opening sequences than many of the more experienced players who play benji acol.

[Cyberyeti]

Does nobody use a negative over 2♣-2♦-2M ? I've never played benji, but over an Acol 2♥/♠ it's normal to play one, so is there much difference between this and the benji sequence ?

 

Also depends on your NT ranges what's passable, some people play 2N is 19-20, 2♣/2N is 21-22, 2♦-2N is 23-24 and passable, 2♣/3N is 25-26

[Liversidge]

Does nobody use a negative over 2♣-2♦-2M ? I've never played benji, but over an Acol 2♥/♠ it's normal to play one, so is there much difference between this and the benji sequence ?

 

Also depends on your NT ranges what's passable, some people play 2N is 19-20, 2♣/2N is 21-22, 2♦-2N is 23-24 and passable, 2♣/3N is 25-26

 

You are right, Cyberyeti, - I should have said that my understanding is that Benji Acol allows a pass by responder after:

a) a 2D relay and either a 2NT response from opener or

b) after a 2D response followed by a 2M from opener and a 2NT negative from responder.

 

My concern was what happens if opener takes the bidding beyond 2NT in response to the 2D relay.

After this feedback I have a much better feel for it. I can respond with less than I imagined, but with 0-2 HCP and no useful shape I can still pass.

[Cyberyeti]

You are right, Cyberyeti, - I should have said that my understanding is that Benji Acol allows a pass by responder after:

a) a 2D relay and either a 2NT response from opener or

b) after a 2D response followed by a 2M from opener and a 2NT negative from responder.

 

My concern was what happens if opener takes the bidding beyond 2NT in response to the 2D relay.

After this feedback I have a much better feel for it. I can respond with less than I imagined, but with 0-2 HCP and no useful shape I can still pass.

 

BTW, 2N may not be the best negative, 2♣-2♦-2♥- 2♠=neg, 2N=spades means you rightside NT in the first case and ♠ in the second, the only disadvantage is that you wrongside NT when partner has spades. You can play herbert negatives to other suits, but over 2♥ is probably the best one. Another alternative is to play Kokish style, where 2♣-2♦-2♥ is hearts or balanced and has a pretty much mandatory 2♠ response over which 2N gives you another balanced range and any other bid is what you'd have rebid with an Acol 2♥ over a 2♠ relay.

[helene_t]

Before discussing the follow-ups you should discuss which hands you put into the 2♣ opening. For example you may define 2♣ as:

- 22-23 balanced (or 3suited), or

- semi-gf one-suited, or

- gf two-suited with one of the suits being a major

 

It then follows that responder can pass

- the 2NT rebid

- the 3M third bid (showing the semi-gf one-suited)

- the 3m rebid (showing the semi-gf one-suited)

 

but not

2♣-2♦

2M-whatever

3m

since that would show a GF two-suited hand.

[paulg]

I think you have to understand that just by asking these questions and thinking about these sequences, you understand more about the 2C/2D opening sequences than many of the more experienced players who play benji acol.

I had two emails in my inbox this morning, one each from the players in the second-best pair at our local club. Both Life Masters who have been playing Benji since they met Albert Benjamin in the 1640s, and for the last 20 years in partnership, had never discussed 2♦-2♥(neg)-4♦. Now they are not talking to each other!

 

My plan is to tell them that they are both mad and deserve each other (both 4♦ and the pass were inexcusable), hopefully in a way that will get them talking at least to each other, if not me! Dealing with octogenarians can be fun.

[helene_t]

since they met Albert Benjamin in the 1640s

I think that back in the time when bridge was played with Tarot cards, Benji openings might have something going for it. With 78 cards in the deck there are more strong hands to differentiate.

[fromageGB]

If you are playing Benji then I think by definition 2♣ is strong but not GF, while 2♦ is GF. Having decided to devote two whole opening bids to the strong hands, surely it does not make sense to have only a marginal difference between the two. This means that as 2♦ is GF, 2♣ should be 2 tricks short of game. Which in turn means that any 2♣ opener rebid that is not a jump can be passed, and the idea of a 2NT negative is wrong.

 

But then I think the idea of devoting two bids to strong hands is wrong.

[Zelandakh]

In my opinion "Standard" would be that the 2♦ opening is always GF and a 2♣ opening can be passed below 3NT in:

 

2♣ - 2♦; 2M

2♣ - 2♦; 2M - 2NT; 3M

2♣ - 2♦; 2NT - 3red; 3M

2♣ - 2♦; 3m

 

Whether this represents an optimal agreement is another question entirely.

[gordontd]

In my opinion "Standard" would be that the 2♦ opening is always GF and a 2♣ opening can be passed below 3NT in:

 

2♣ - 2♦; 2M

2♣ - 2♦; 2M - 2NT; 3M

2♣ - 2♦; 2NT - 3red; 3M

2♣ - 2♦; 3m

 

Whether this represents an optimal agreement is another question entirely.

I would expect "standard" to be that 2C-2D-2M requires another bid from responder in line with an Acol 2M opener, to facilitate bidding two-suiters.

[Vampyr]

By the way, my advice would be not to play Benji. They come up too infrequently to be worth the hassle of sorting out the details. 2♣ as any strong hand and 2♦ as natural and weak is better and simpler.

This. It sucks when you have a really big hand and open 1♠ and get the dummy when game is cold, but most folks are not dealt enough big hands that devoting two bids to them gains on frequency.

[StevenG]

I would expect "standard" to be that 2C-2D-2M requires another bid from responder in line with an Acol 2M opener, to facilitate bidding two-suiters.

I've never known anyone play like that. I've ony ever seen 2C-2D-2M played as nonforcing - bidding two-suiters is difficult after any sort of artificial strong 2 opener.

 

I don't understand why all you good players want to be in 3M going off when the field is in 2M making - the same problem exists with transfer superaccepts. Is it because you only think in terms of expert level IMPs, when most of us (especially people posting in N/B) are playing MPs at a less exalted level?

[1eyedjack]

If you are playing Benji then I think by definition 2♣ is strong but not GF, while 2♦ is GF. Having decided to devote two whole opening bids to the strong hands, surely it does not make sense to have only a marginal difference between the two. This means that as 2♦ is GF, 2♣ should be 2 tricks short of game. Which in turn means that any 2♣ opener rebid that is not a jump can be passed, and the idea of a 2NT negative is wrong.

 

But then I think the idea of devoting two bids to strong hands is wrong.

 

The conclusion may be right but I don't think that the logic is valid. By which I mean that the difference between the two hand types need not be "marginal" just because the playing strengths might be similar.

 

In principle there can be a case for differentiating between 2C and 2D on the basis of hand features other than demarcation by strength. Using, for example, 2C to show a hand that has little doubt about the trump suit takes some pressure off the 2D opener (or vice versa if you play 2C/2D the opposite way to standard, as some do, and I would recommend if you have to choose between those two alternatives).

 

Opening 2C with a hand 2 tricks short of game is not, in my view, an improvement. If game is on (ie if partner can provide 2 tricks), you can expect partner to respond to 1-suit, and if he does not have a response to 1-suit then to open 2C seriously risks getting too high.

 

I am no great fan of benji, but neither am I that enthusiastic about a weak 2D opener. With a pickup I usually go with weak 2D as that is less vulnerable to foulups in undiscussed sequences. But with an established partnership with well honed agreements I would expect the relative merits of a weak 2D and 2D to show a strong opener in one unspecified suit to be finely balanced.

 

I would expect the merits of splitting your strong openings into more than one opener to increase as the level increases at which you start to show the strong hands. Playing a strong Club (or pass) may enable you to fit them all into one bid, but that may not be so obvious if your cheapest strong opener is 2C. Furthermore, the days when you could expect a free run at the auction having made a strong opener are long past, and that applies with strong 2 openers as with 1C. This adds to the argument for narrowing your definitions at an early stage in the auction, which in turn argues for splitting the openers. Maybe not conclusively, there are downsides.

[fromageGB]

Opening 2C with a hand 2 tricks short of game is not, in my view, an improvement. If game is on (ie if partner can provide 2 tricks), you can expect partner to respond to 1-suit, and if he does not have a response to 1-suit then to open 2C seriously risks getting too high.

This (the first part) is the argument for not having such a 2♣ or 2♦ bid, and I and many others agree with you whole-heartedly. But if you did have this, then it does not seriously risk getting too high when any opener non-jump rebid can be passed.

 

Furthermore, the days when you could expect a free run at the auction having made a strong opener are long past, and that applies with strong 2 openers as with 1C. This adds to the argument for narrowing your definitions at an early stage in the auction, which in turn argues for splitting the openers.

Not sure about this. If I come across a 2♣ or 2♦ open that specifically means "I don't know where we are heading", I would be more likely to intervene. Your idea of a "contract uncertainty" split between two strong bids may be a better alternative than Benji, but then there are many contenders for the spare bid in a regular partnership if you have just one strong suit opening.

[helene_t]

But with an established partnership with well honed agreements I would expect the relative merits of a weak 2D and 2D to show a strong opener in one unspecified suit to be finely balanced.

Yes, I think it makes a lot of sense to put different shapes into the 2♣ and 2♦ openings. With Shogi I play something very similar to IMP-25 (the version of Dutch Doubleton which the IMP magazine tries to establish as a standard):

-2♣ covers a.o.t. hands with clubs, including M-♣ twosuiters

-2♦ covers a.o.t. hands with diamonds, including M-♦ twosuiters

 

Now the 3♦ rebid shows a minor suit one-suiter, while the 3♣ rebid shows a 6-4 (maybe some exceptional 5-4s as well) m-M two-suiters, and partner can ask for the major by bidding 3♦.

 

That way, you don't get to open any two-suited or minor-suited hands below GF strength at the 2-level. So partner needs to respond a bit lighter to your 1-level openings. This may cause a bit of problems playing Acol where

1M-1NT

2NT*

is 17-18 while 3NT would be 19. So you don't really want partner to hold a random 5-count. So maybe you should just accept that you occasionally will be making 1M with four overtricks. I think it's worth it. Especially if I open 2m and opps have bid at the 4-level before my next turn. Now I am more concerned about partner knowing something about my shape than whether I have a 4-loser or a 3-loser hand.

[Vampyr]

Your idea of a "contract uncertainty" split between two strong bids may be a better alternative than Benji, but then there are many contenders for the spare bid in a regular partnership if you have just one strong suit opening.

 

Quite. 1eyedjack seems very lucky; the rest of us need the space to bid the crap we are usually dealt.

[1eyedjack]

the rest of us need the space to bid the crap we are usually dealt.

 

And present company excepted , the vast majority of the rest use that extra space to show what? A weak 2 in D. Sheesh! Impressive.

[fromageGB]

Hey, let's not forget this is the N&B forum, and a weak 2 in diamonds is a simple and useful tool to have. It is a good default agreement.