Bid This Hand

[jgillispie]

Can somebody give their analysis on how to bid these hands?

 

-- Using SAYC; Most Known Gadgets[hv=pc=n&s=sj2hakq98dk985ck6&w=saq3hj72dqjt2cq87&n=st98765h6d73caj32&e=sk4ht543da64ct954]399|300[/hv]

 

West Deals

[sfi]

Without thinking about it too much, my auction at IMPs is 1D - 2S - P - 4S. If East doesn't lead the DA it looks like it's going to make. At matchpoints I'm much less likely to bash game with the South hand.

 

Only East's pass looks clear cut though.

[steve2005]

1♦-P(too poor a suit for 2♠)-1♥-1N-P-2♠ ( oh yeah guess u can transfer)

[kenrexford]

1C-P- 1H-P

1NT-2S - all pass

[hrothgar]

1♦ - P - 1♥ - 1NT

P - 2♥ - P - 2♠

All pass

[TylerE]

Without thinking about it too much, my auction at IMPs is 1D - 2S - P - 4S. If East doesn't lead the DA it looks like it's going to make. At matchpoints I'm much less likely to bash game with the South hand.

 

Only East's pass looks clear cut though.

 

The 2♠ jump shift is strong in SAYC. Even logic says it can't be by a passed hand the SAYC notes make no such distinction.

[the hog]

Can somebody give their analysis on how to bid these hands?

 

-- Using SAYC; Most Known Gadgets[hv=pc=n&s=sj2hakq98dk985ck6&w=saq3hj72dqjt2cq87&n=st98765h6d73caj32&e=sk4ht543da64ct954]399|300[/hv]

 

West Deals

 

1D 1S X 2H

P 2S P 3S

 

All pass.

[Mbodell]

The 2♠ jump shift is strong in SAYC. Even logic says it can't be by a passed hand the SAYC notes make no such distinction.

 

This isn't a jump shift, it is a preemptive weak 2 overcall.

[P_Marlowe]

1D - (Pass) - 1H - (Pass (1))

1NT - (Pass) - Pass - (Pass (2))

 

(1) 1NT is an option => You will end up in 2S

(2) If you passed the first time, you have to pass now

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[banrock]

If you're W and sitting opposite GIB you'll probably have bidding something along the lines of, 1♦ - 2♠ - 3♠ (cue bid showing 6-12 total points and 3 card support)and before you know it there you are at the 4 level with the fewer points on your side :D

 

Personally though I have to side with P_Marlowe, I don't think N is strong enough for 2♠ and as E bid ♥, I don't think S will want any part of the auction except maybe a X in about 2 rounds when W has shown 3 card support for his Ps major !

[P_Marlowe]

1C-P- 1H-P

1NT-2S - all pass

The problem I have with this auction is, that you back in, with an

unlmited opponent behind you.

2S is clearcut in the bal. seat, ... but I guess im getting old.

[kenrexford]

The problem I have with this auction is, that you back in, with an

unlmited opponent behind you.

2S is clearcut in the bal. seat, ... but I guess im getting old.

Well, partner will have hesitated for me. LoL

[razorsharp]

We would bid P - 2S - P - 2NT

P - 3D - P - 4S where 3D is a Jogust response showing 6S but a baaaaaaaad weak 2 opener! And I sure wouldnt open (or overcall) 2S vul, so

P - P - P - 1H;

P - 1S -P - 2NT (16-17 NF in our system)

P - 3S -P - 4S (IMPS)

razorsharp

[billw55]

This isn't a jump shift, it is a terrible preemptive weak 2 overcall.

fixed

[kenberg]

The 2♠ jump shift is strong in SAYC. Even logic says it can't be by a passed hand the SAYC notes make no such distinction.

 

In the auction you refer to, (1♦)-2♠, is a jump overcall, not a jump shift. These are weak in SAYC. See, for example https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/sayc.html under defensive bidding.

[kenberg]

We start with 1♦-Pass-1♥. No clone of mine would consider a 2♠ bid on the North hand. At least some of the points should be in the suit.

 

Now to South with a 16 count and a good five card suit. I am not sure if SAYC has a position on whether 2♥ is natural here (oops, SAYC says natural) but I also like to have six cards so I am not doing it. I don't like 1NT either but probably I do it. After which W passes,and N transfers to spades. I don't see that anyone has a bid after that.

 

 

Now suppose South passes 1♥. This doesn't strike me as crazy. All his length and most of his strength is in the opponent's suits. Now W bids 1NT. As North, I still don't like it, but at least I could now come in with 2♠ without confusing partner. Since I passed on the first round, he can hardly think that I have much here.

But suppose it goes all the way to 1♦-Pass-1♥.-Pass-1NT-Pass-Pass. In my opinion, and I don't know that SAYC has an opinion, a double now should show a hand something like this. Good strength, not suitable for earlier action. I have never thought it right that I could have four spades, not be willing to double 1♥, but now be willing to force partner to bid at the 2 level. So I think a double shows something like this. Now North has an easy pull.

 

So it seems to me that we end in a part score in spades. Various decisions, some rather close, but all roads lead to the same place.

 

If North does come in with 2♠ over 1♦ he probably plays it there. I don't think E has the values for a negative double. South will not be happy but probably he lets it be. I can imagine him venturing 3NT though. If that is what happened, I would fault North, not South. 3NT is a bit of a gamble after the 2♠ wjo, but S expects to see a better suit hit the dummy.You say most gadgets. Ogust can be played oposite a wjo as well as a weak opening. I think the North hand qualifies as "weak suit, weak had", so we get out in 3[sp. Seems to make.

[mike777]

Can somebody give their analysis on how to bid these hands?

 

-- Using SAYC; Most Known Gadgets[hv=pc=n&s=sj2hakq98dk985ck6&w=saq3hj72dqjt2cq87&n=st98765h6d73caj32&e=sk4ht543da64ct954]399|300[/hv]

 

West Deals

 

good question, unfortunately I think showing all 4 hands is creating a bias.

 

NV I would expect many more forum members to overcall 1 or 2s rather than pass. If so south will force to game.

[kenberg]

Double post deleted but I will use it to respond to Mike. I am quite sure I would not bid 2♠ over 1♦. On some hands I might later wish I had, but I would not. Coming in on the second round, if partner passes an it goes1♦-1♥-1NT is at least more tempting. I doubt I would do that either.

 

 

I don't usually play Ogust over a wjo, but here it would keep you out of 4♠ and out of 3NT after an imo ill-advised 2♠ wjo

[mikeh]

1C-P- 1H-P

1NT-2S - all pass

Let me see if I understand this auction.

 

N passes over 1♦, which is entirely sensible. His spades are way too weak for anyone but a lunatic to pre-empt on and the hand/suit are too weak for a 1 level overcall.

 

Now LHO shows 4+ hearts and doesn't deny 4 spades, and is completely unlimited in strength

 

RHO announces no fit for hearts, but may have 3 cards there, and I will even allow that 1N denies 4 spades (it wouldn't for a significant minority of players, including me, but it would for the substantial majority).

 

 

Now, with LHO having an extremely good idea of opener's strength and a pretty good idea of his shape, N bids 2♠, advertising a suit too weak to have bid the 1st time.

 

Hmmmm....I wonder why we are doing that? Because we like going for 500 on a partscore hand, or 800-1100 opposite their non-vul game?

 

As it happens, we can see that it is safe to do so, but in the world of real bridge, the notion that one should first let the opps exchange information and then, with LHO still unlimited, stick one's neck out is ludicrous, even at mps.

 

My preference would be for the auction to start as Ken suggests, but to have S reopen with a double. This shows a strong hand with strong, usually long, hearts, and suggests that N pass and lead a heart.

 

Make North 5=2=2=4 with the same hcp (say East is 4=4=2=3 and W 3=2=4=4) and we can see how effective that approach is. On a heart lead, we have an easy 300 on a partscore hand.

 

On the actual hand, I think N has a very tough decision as to whether to pass or pull. If he passes, he leads a heart, since that is what the double requests.

 

Btw, I reject 1N as S. We have a minimum in hcp and good reason to downgrade the heart suit by a touch. Had the opps not bid hearts, we would look at AKQ98 as having a reasonable prospect of generating 5 tricks, and would slightly upgrade. On the auction, there is a non trivial chance that this might generate only 3 tricks, and the chances of 5 are almost non-existent (I know, partner could hold Jx or Jxx, etc, but the odds are against it). Meanwhile, we have a very poor hand outside of hearts and nowhere to run if they double.

[hrothgar]

The 2♠ jump shift is strong in SAYC. Even logic says it can't be by a passed hand the SAYC notes make no such distinction.

 

This is a jump overcall, not a jump shift

[kenrexford]

IMO, North can act in this sequence for one reason only. In my sequence, which involves four me bidders, West opened 1C. Because he didn't rebid 1S, club length is shortened to 2+. North didn't bid 1S or 2S earlier, so he has a situational value. The sv is contextually obvious, clubs and spades. So, the gain is the description, which offers a second landing zone. IMO, that's enough for the bid when white. The other gain is an expectation that I am preempting the opponents out of a likely diamond fit that has been buried by system.

 

If West had opened 1D, I would have less reason for bidding, strangely, because the strength inferences are lost and the preempting less effective, and hence less to gain.

[mikeh]

IMO, North can act in this sequence for one reason only. In my sequence, which involves four me bidders, West opened 1C. Because he didn't rebid 1S, club length is shortened to 2+. North didn't bid 1S or 2S earlier, so he has a situational value. The sv is contextually obvious, clubs and spades. So, the gain is the description, which offers a second landing zone. IMO, that's enough for the bid when white. The other gain is an expectation that I am preempting the opponents out of a likely diamond fit that has been buried by system.

 

If West had opened 1D, I would have less reason for bidding, strangely, because the strength inferences are lost and the preempting less effective, and hence less to gain.

LOL, I hadn't noticed, despite quoting your post, that you had ignored the OP systemic constraints to choose a highly non-standard (tho not 'weird') choice of opening bids. What is weird is that you then infer that this West, playing a system known only to you, could be short in clubs for the 1N rebid. That strikes me as extraordinary. Anyway, when an OP asks for advice within a particular framework, it is the height of self-indulgence to post an answer that not only ignores the OP but, without any disclosure, is based on an extremely unusual (to be polite) system wherein the 1N rebid could be 2+ clubs.

[kenberg]

It just occurred to me: Does "Most known gadgets" include having 1♦-Pass-1♥-1NT be sandwich? Whether it is sandwich or natural mikeh suggests that I take my my reluctance to bid 1NT seriously and act accordingly. Sounds like good advice.

[MrAce]

If 1 NT by S would be sandwich, then i think below auction is reasonable.

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp1hp1nppdp2sppp]133|100[/hv]

[kenrexford]

LOL, I hadn't noticed, despite quoting your post, that you had ignored the OP systemic constraints to choose a highly non-standard (tho not 'weird') choice of opening bids. What is weird is that you then infer that this West, playing a system known only to you, could be short in clubs for the 1N rebid. That strikes me as extraordinary. Anyway, when an OP asks for advice within a particular framework, it is the height of self-indulgence to post an answer that not only ignores the OP but, without any disclosure, is based on an extremely unusual (to be polite) system wherein the 1N rebid could be 2+ clubs.

I am not sure that the part right above the hand pattern was there when I posted. I might have missed it. But, obviously I was using a short club approach if I opened 1C. And, it's not difficult to know the nuances of Opener's auction if I am bidding all four hands. True, I failed to alert myself, but I expect no adjustment.

 

And, how strange is a 1C opening these days?