eagles123 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 [hv=pc=n&n=st984ha7dacakqjt9&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1s4h]133|200[/hv] system = 4 card majors, weak NT what's the bid :) I blasted 6S which worked out ok but surely a better way to bid the hand exists :) will post full hand later Thanks, Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 My bid is the same with or without that interference :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 hopefully your playing some sort of keycard so you can find your spot, double would be neg for minors so 4N=KC, otherwise its take a guess with 6♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 would 4N really be keycard here? Would've thought it's "pick a minor" (xx x AKJxx AQxxx) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 All you need to know is how many spade honors partner has.Surely, there must be some bid that allows you to find out... Oh wait, there is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 All you need to know is how many spade honors partner has.Surely, there must be some bid that allows you to find out... Oh wait, there is. I assume you mean 5N as grand slam force? I guess if you have methods over that to stop in 6 opposite say, AKxxx that is ok (and there's probably enough room to do so), and 5N probably should be GSF if 4N is takeout, but I think a lot of really good pairs would not have the methods to find out everything about the spade honors as trivially as you suggest. I don't think I have grand slam force agreements with anyone and I don't recall ever bidding grand slam force, so I would not be shocked if my partners thought 5N was some kind of pick a slam (even though it probably shouldn't be with 4N avail). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 I'll bid 4NT RKC and stop in either 5S, 6S or 7NT depending on the response. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 One of the most potent slam avenues is via rkc. It seems hugelyreasonable that if 4n I available after 1M opening than it should remain RKC. We do have an x to essentially show the minors andI do not feel we need both x and 4n to do nothing more thandifferentiate on the size of the minors. 4N RKC for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Heck, after 5NT I don't even have methods to stop in 6 opposite KQJXX. But luckily we haven't gone kicking and screaming into the 21st Century yet; so, 4N is RKC. When we finally go modern, we will be screwed on this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 5N? p ♠ could be headed by QJ and need to play in 5♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 5N? he's playing 4-card majors could be weak 4441 and need to play in 5♠I think Acolers have to just assume 5 spades in a situation such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 5N? p ♠ could be headed by QJ and need to play in 5♠ That's very pessimistic, he opened and they bid 4H, they probably have some heart values Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 would 4N really be keycard here? Would've thought it's "pick a minor" (xx x AKJxx AQxxx)Yes that's standard AFAIK. 4NT followed by 5♠ would be some sort of slam try in spades, though. Not sure what the difference between the direct and the indirect 5♠ is. Of course you can also bid 5♥, whatever that means. In any case there is no way to ask for aces here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Maybe the meaning of 4N depends somewhat on whether the hand is given in the Intermediate/Advanced forum or the Expert forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Maybe the meaning of 4N depends somewhat on whether the hand is given in the Intermediate/Advanced forum or the Expert forum?The serendipity of variance in agreements between modern experts and stodgy old folks (expert or not) have occasionally swung a match in favor of the underdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I am happy to be able to bid 4NT as RKCB here and will do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I am happy to be able to bid 4NT as RKCB here and will do so. Ditto, X is T/O orientated for us so 4N asks. Also on the Acol discussion, AFAIK nobody ever opens any 4441 1♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Is it really common to play 4nt as takeout? If it is please tell me who in case I get to play against them. Letting the opponents pre-empt you out of the ability to key card feels like leading with your chin. I'll double with those minor suit hands and take a lower penalty once in a blue moon or cue bid and continue if I'm slammish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 The serendipity of variance in agreements between modern experts and stodgy old folks (expert or not) have occasionally swung a match in favor of the underdog.As a stodgy non-expert, it would never have occurred to me at the table that 4N could be anything other than RKC. Maybe someday I'll learn more new-fangled stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I assume you mean 5N as grand slam force? I guess if you have methods over that to stop in 6 opposite say, AKxxx that is ok (and there's probably enough room to do so), and 5N probably should be GSF if 4N is takeout, but I think a lot of really good pairs would not have the methods to find out everything about the spade honors as trivially as you suggest. This is interesting as there is so much space after 5N that it should be possible to cater for all (or at least most) cases but it's comes up so rarely that it may not be worth thinking about :)I don't remember ever using it, last time I discussed it we agreed: 1step = 0 out of 3 top, 2step = 1 out of 3 top etc. but I now see how it backfires with say 5 trump support or even 4 card opposite 6+carder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I know I will hear the frequency of hands are low which is suitable for 4 NT rkcb. I wonder how frequent is to use 4 NT as take out for minors (combined with 4 NT and then 5♠ or cue and whatever it is out there ) I think a well oiled pdship could use it for take out to the optimum level. As far as i know Meckwell plays this rkcb, in fact they play a lot of 4 NT bids rkcb in competition and w/o competition. I know more than just 1 top pairs who plays it rkcb. . I also watch BBO vugraphs, top events, and yet to counter a 4 NT bid as sophisticated and detailed as in BBF. All i see mostly is rkcb unless they have ability to ask rkcb by using other tools such as kick back - minorwood or w/e. Perhaps we should not only focus on the frequency only. How about the efficiency of a bid ? I mean if you have a bid which is less frequent but what it asks and what it learns is crystal clear information, while we have an alternative use of the same bid which is more frequent (?) but not magically lands you on correct contract, if there is any at 5 level. Basically one of them (kinda )guarantees a result but less frequent, while other one does not but more frequent. No need to mention the fact that, choosing 4 NT as rkcb you can still show/imply other suits via DBL, but by choosing other one you totally disable yourself from learning keycards. I think using double as take out and totally disabling myself from making direct penalty doubles is better than disabling myself from asking rkcb. Over heavy preempts when we are about to bid at 5 level, slam is in picture most of the time. Now this is the 3rd time i am mentioning same thing, when you adobt a system where your 4 NT or 5 level bids are sophisticated and complex, you will need time to figure to remember the agreement, time to decide whether you should dbl them and if not which bid is suitable in a timely manner, or all these bids such as 4 NT or 5x or DBL, if made with a hesitation, will open a wide door for complaints from opponents. Because they will not pop up instantly in your memory like a stayman or jacoby transfer. All these positions we have after a heavy preempt or even after a mod preempt are kinda unique positions/auctions. A little detail in the auction may need to be analysed differently in each auction and may require a different approach. You will need time to figure this out and it will almost always come with the hesitation factor. (or maybe my memory sucks and i am getting old http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) So i am still having hard time to decide which is better tbh. (i meant which is better at the table, obviously 4 NT for other purposes than rkcb is better in forum bridge) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 deleted double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump Echo Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 5♥ Leave it to my partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 5♥ Leave it to my partner. If you are leaving this to pd to decide, i feel bad, very bad for your pd. (I assume you meant to invite him via 5♥ because you said you will leave it to him) I have seen a lot of under bidding in BBF, but this is a new dimension of under bidding, really. I mean the poor guy will have to decide correctly AKxxx xx KJx xxx is good for slam, when some people would not even open this hand. I would be scared to invite pd to any slam in the future if he accepts this one. Otoh it is not really hard to construct hands where 6♣ is better or at least avoids a guess in spades, but i would not worry about these hands as much as worrying about hands i may miss grandslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolexa Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I would bid 4NT (RKCB) based off partners opener and see what "keycards" he has. That will determine where we end up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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