ATB would your partnership reach game?

[thebiker]

Love All at IMPS (Teams of 8)

 

Soouth deals and opens 1NT (12-14)

 

West

J53

AKT64

K63

Q4

 

East

QT4

3

AQJ7

AT098

 

Questions

(a) If you were West would you make a bid over 1NT

(b) If West did not bid, would you as East bid a bid

© If one of you did make a an initial overcall, what would be the final contract reached by your partnership - Give details of your sequence please

 

At the table EW were playing Suction

West passed (his alternative was to bid 2D, showing a single suited heart hand or both black suits)

East bid 2H which showed spades or both minors. The final contract was 3C making 130 -game in NT (430) was possible

 

Questions

(d) What went wrong, was this an unsuitable pair of hands for Suction operators?

(e) Were the Suction players at fault?

(f) Is Suction a suitable convention playing IMPS?

 

Question

(g) WOuld this problem have proved too difficult for other defensive methods?

 

Thank you in advance for your answers/input

 

regards

Brian Keable

alias "thebiker"

thank you in advance for your impu

[gnasher]

I wouldn't bid as West. As East I'd want to bid, but wouldn't be able to becuase I'd never be playing methods that let me show this hand.

 

This could have been a good hand for Suction: East shows spades or both minors, North bids something (2NT?) that shows an invitation or better opposite either option, South bids something (3♥?) that shows both minors and a hand that would accept the invitation, and North bids 3NT, hoping that either the spades are stopped or there are only four to cash.

[MrAce]

I would not be able to reach game, but i would be defending 1 NT or 2x doubled.

[helene_t]

I would pass it out. BTW East's club suit contains a 0 card

[kenberg]

I would not be able to reach game, but i would be defending 1 NT or 2x doubled.

 

You envision the auction as

1NT-pass-Pass-X

Pass-Pass-?

 

Is that right?

 

When East doubles, he has to consider the possibility that West, with a different hand, will pull to 2♥. After which you are planning to?

 

90% or more of the time my opponents are playing a strong NT so I get less practice than I would like handling just this situation, so I am asking, not disagreeing.

[MrAce]

 

 

Is that right?

 

No. I would double with W hand.

 

I debated this long time ago, where Justin said he uses the upper range of their weak NT as minimum values for starting a double and i debated that i do it with equal hands to their NT range or stronger. Perhaps setting their upper range as our minimum start point for double is wise, but i did not have the chance to change what i played in past, neither i had so many problems with it to play it the way i do, so this is exactly how it would go if i played as W in this hand.

 

The city i learnt bridge, is a Precision Club land. I myself had to start with learning precision first. And most of my life all i played and defended was weak NT in the ranges of 11-13 12-14 13-15 (You know precision systems vary as much as the pairs who plays it http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

 

Note that back then weak NT openers did not use any vulnerability restrictions.(at least not in the city i played ) I don't know if that had any effect on how i defended vs it looked OK.

 

 

[aguahombre]

I would pass it out. BTW East's club suit contains a 0 card

I am assuming the club suit is AT987.

 

In direct seat with the other hand, I am short of a natural 2H overcall and short for a Double. The "blame" for not getting to 3NT our way would be mine. It might also be the credit; we haven't made 3nt, yet.

[razorsharp]

I wudda overcalled 2!H natural, as part of Astro, the best 1NT defense of all, for 40 years. Responder bids 2NT invitational, and I bid 3NT with my max (since with another Q I'da X that weak NT)

Pass is also acceptable over 1NT. But then wee'da reopened with X showing any 3 suitz!! So we'd get a decent, if not winddfall penalty defending 1NTX! (a !D OL maked a lotta sense, don't you think??

razorsharp

[steve2005]

I double with east hand and it will be left in

 

with any luck the 0♣ is J♣ lol

 

 

[kenberg]

I double with east hand and it will be left in

 

with any luck the 0♣ is J♣ lol

 

 

 

Let me pose the same question to you as I did to Mr.Ace (Ace would have doubled with the West hand, so the Q did not apply there).

 

As the bid rolls around to you, 1NT-Pass-Pass, you presumably ask yourself what you will do if over your double partner pulls to 2♥. With the hand that he has, he won't do that. But you have to decide on the double not knowing whether partner will leave it in. Your plans after your X, then Pass-2♥-Pass? (I suppose after X-Pass-2♥-X you would redouble? That would be asking partner to make a different choice? Or would it?)

 

As I said when I posed this to Ace, anticipating incorrectly he would be doubling with E rather than W, I am asking, not disagreeing. I am having a tough time thinking of myself as a doubler after 1NT-Pass-Pass.

[ahydra]

I tend to make too many dodgy overcalls of 1NT but with 13HCP and a good suit this is fine.

 

(1NT)-2H-(p)-3C

(p)-3H-(p) and now East has to take a view. I think at IMPs I would chance it, at matchpoints I would pass.

 

Alternatively W could cook up a 3D bid and then East has an easy 3NT.

 

Alternatively alternatively (and probably most likely), E could reply 2NT (natural) and W raises to 3NT. If the hearts don't come in, those three filler cards in the other suits must surely help.

 

ahydra

[fromageGB]

(a) Yes, I would bid 2♥ as soon as I heard the opening bid.

(b) n/a

© 2♥ 2NT 3NT

(d) West did not bid 2♥

(e) Yes, because there is nothing in suction that says "don't bid".

(f) Yes

(g) No; I don't play suction over 1NT.

[aguahombre]

If partner bid 2H, and I invited with 2NT, she wouldn't accept with subminimum values for our style of 2H overcall. But, that wouldn't have been the situation.

 

If partner had perpetrated a 2H overcall, I would not have invited game (would just bid 3NT) --- and she would get the credit for our side reaching 3NT....no gadgets involved.

[the hog]

Clearly bidding 2H on the West hand is very poor. Doubling is also not a good call, though somewhat better than the 2H bid. Hard to get to game here, which is one reason why the wnt is such a powerful bid.

[1eyedjack]

I regard Suction as a primarily disruptive tool. Nothing wrong with disruptive tools, per se, except when used in a context where constructive methods are indicated.

[fromageGB]

Clearly bidding 2H on the West hand is very poor.

This needs justification! If it is so clear to you, perhaps you could explain for those of us suffering from blurred vision?

[fromageGB]

I regard Suction as a primarily disruptive tool.

If your goal is disruption, why should you not disrupt with a 2♥ bid?

If your disruptive bid has a minimum strength associated, why should partner not make a constructive continuation if he has the values for that?

[MrAce]

This needs justification! If it is so clear to you, perhaps you could explain for those of us suffering from blurred vision?

 

I don't know Hog but to me overcalls at 2 level with 5332 are something to be avoided. There are exception hands to this, but they are very rare for me and the hand in OP is not even close to one of them. I would pass rather than 2♥. But everyone has their comfort zone, probably you are not comfortable with DBL which i said would be my bid and i can understand that.

[P_Marlowe]

(a) No, with 5332 we dont have a call

(b) This is closer, East could bid 2NT, which does not promise 55 in the minors for us

© If we start with double, we would most likely defend, if we discover the 53 heart fit,

we play 4H

(d) yes, the pair of hands was not nice for your agreement set

(e) No

(f) as long as X is some kind of penalty double / or can be converted , sure

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[lowerline]

(a) No, but I think it's close to double

(b) Yes, I would double, but I think it's close to pass

© 1nt doubled after (1nt)-p-(p)-dbl-(p)-p-(p) assuming they do not run

(d) Whatever method you are playing, double should be business after a weak nt

(e) Depends on whether they could double...

(f) It is playable, but I think Suction works better against a strong nt

(g) No. 3nt probably doesn't make, so even passing out 1nt will not be so bad...

 

S.

[MickyB]

I'd get there via a 2C overcall showing 3+S,4+H. I'd pass it out playing almost any other method.

 

I tend to make too many dodgy overcalls of 1NT but with 13HCP and a good suit this is fine.

 

Try playing 2H when partner puts down a stiff trump and see if you still claim AKTxx is a good suit :P

[Fluffy]

I find it amazing how people who overcall 2♣ on AKTxx opposite 1♠ are scared to do the same over 1NT. It is the complete opposite.

 

When opponent's open 1NT you know that all suits are breaking evenly, so it is a lot safer to act, while overcalling where RHO could be short is a lot more dangerous.

 

I insta overcall 5 card majors at MPs to get those juicy +110. Here it is a different matter, others have much more experience against weak NT than I do so I trust their experience better than myself, but if I had this hand last week I would had made a constructive overcall. I have just too many bad experiences missing games against weak NT, and very few ones about going for a number.

[bluecalm]

W has automatic bid imo. 12+hcp, 3+-3+majors = bid. Assuming something like Landy I dbl. Then E pass and while we are not bidding game we are going for 500-800 w/e they bid.

I find it amazing that people pass here as well. I think it's a major blunder, you have the same strength as the opener with values located behind him and he is already in 1NT!. Game is not far away and nailing them even closer. I can't even understand passing let alone consider it as sensible option.

[Finch]

I would be defending 1NT undoubled on the auction 1NT P P P

 

For everyone making dogmatic comments about what is right or best against 1NT, I can explain why their methods fail on some other hands. There is no perfect defence against the weak NT (just like there is no perfect defence against any other opening bid).

Mine fail on this one but I think overall I gain, and I have a lot of experience defending the weak NT.

[steve2005]

Let me pose the same question to you as I did to Mr.Ace (Ace would have doubled with the West hand, so the Q did not apply there).As the bid rolls around to you, 1NT-Pass-Pass, you presumably ask yourself what you will do if over your double partner pulls to 2♥. With the hand that he has, he won't do that. But you have to decide on the double not knowing whether partner will leave it in. Your plans after your X, then Pass-2♥-Pass? (I suppose after X-Pass-2♥-X you would redouble? That would be asking partner to make a different choice? Or would it?)As I said when I posed this to Ace, anticipating incorrectly he would be doubling with E rather than W, I am asking, not disagreeing. I am having a tough time thinking of myself as a doubler after 1NT-Pass-Pass.

if partner pulls to 2♥ will play in it as this will be at least a 5-card suit, with 3433 or 44(32) p will leave double in rather than escaping even with little hcp