5 level decision

[Stephen Tu]

All non-vul, IMPS.

 

You hold ♠Qx♥QTxxxx♦A♣AQTx

 

1♥-(p)-2nt(1)-(5♦)-??

(1) Jacoby 2nt

 

You play a standard forcing pass style where pass then pull a double is a slam try. What do you do over 5♦?

[Cascade]

All non-vul, IMPS.

 

You hold ♠Qx♥QTxxxx♦A♣AQTx

 

1♥-(p)-2nt(1)-(5♦)-??

(1) Jacoby 2nt

 

You play a standard forcing pass style where pass then pull a double is a slam try. What do you do over 5♦?

 

I have some extra offense but not so much as I want to make a serious slam try so I bid 5♥. I think this is already a bid over which partner is encouraged to bid some more.

[MrAce]

I have some extra offense but not so much as I want to make a serious slam try so I bid 5♥. I think this is already a bid over which partner is encouraged to bid some more.

 

 

Did you try to place 12+ hcp in in pd's hand without too many diamond points ? It is actually pretty tempting..

 

Worst scenarios are AKJ spades K of clubs and J of hearts or J of clubs OR J of spades AKJ hearts and K of clubs.

[gszes]

Given the choices in the problem I went with pass

and pull over an x by partner to show slam interest.

[nige1]

All non-vul, IMPS. You hold ♠ Q x ♥ Q T x x x x ♦A ♣ A Q T x

1♥-(p)-2nt(1)-(5♦)-??

(1) Jacoby 2nt

You play a standard forcing pass style where pass then pull a double is a slam try. What do you do over 5♦?

IMO Pass = 10, 6♥ = 8, 5♥ = 7, X = 6.

[Cascade]

Did you try to place 12+ hcp in in pd's hand without too many diamond points ? It is actually pretty tempting..

 

Worst scenarios are AKJ spades K of clubs and J of hearts or J of clubs OR J of spades AKJ hearts and K of clubs.

 

Your examples have no points in diamonds not not "too many diamond points".

 

Give partner the diamond king or queen and suddenly you are a card or half a card short of a decent slam. My partner without any diamond cards has another bid and knows I have something extra without diamond wastage. (Actually I consider the diamond ace some wastage hence I am a little stronger than a might be.) Partner should be able to imagine the stiff diamond and something like what i have or more likely something a little better outside diamonds with a small singleton diamond.

 

That is I think 5♥ encourages partner to bid on with a good minimum with nothing wasted.

[MrAce]

Your examples have no points in diamonds not not "too many diamond points".

 

Give partner the diamond king or queen and suddenly you are a card or half a card short of a decent slam. My partner without any diamond cards has another bid and knows I have something extra without diamond wastage. (Actually I consider the diamond ace some wastage hence I am a little stronger than a might be.) Partner should be able to imagine the stiff diamond and something like what i have or more likely something a little better outside diamonds with a small singleton diamond.

 

That is I think 5♥ encourages partner to bid on with a good minimum with nothing wasted.

 

I was trying to make a point. Your pd will not have ♦ K or Q when someone jumps to 5, white vs white and you hold A in that suit. You can of course wait for that to happen and cater for that day, it is totally your own choice. I won't and this is my choice http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

Having said that, i am still not sure if i should pass then pull or bid 5 now. As you can see i did not cast a vote and said "it is very tempting" instead of saying "passing then pulling is correct" Because even w/o the ♦ wastage pd can still hold hand types where we can not stop before slam and it won't be a good slam. But the number of hands that makes slam and pd will hard time to bid it, if we bid 5♥ is more imho.

 

Perhaps, we should ask ourself "how can a hand bid 5♥ in this auction and not be as good as this one" Obviously the bidder believes that we are likely to make it, white vs white. Bidding 5 over 5 when colors are not so attractive, it should show something, and maybe this hand we hold has it.

 

But if it shows an invitation hand then i am all up for passing and then pulling. And i think it shows exactly that.

 

[Stephen Tu]

To me both 5h and pass then pull show extra offense and encourage partner to bid 6 if he thinks he has the right stuff, with the latter sequence being stronger. I just don't know where exactly the dividing line between those actions is, and where this hand falls relative to it. Promote one of those Qs into a K and I think it's super clear to pass and pull, I was unsure about this particular one.

 

On the actual hand anything works, partner was bidding slam (good slam, makes, but wasn't cold) unless you double which I didn't really think was an option. Irrelevant though.

[JLOGIC]

I would just pass then pass a double, based on current replies maybe I am totally misevaluating this hand?

[JLOGIC]

Thinking about it some more maybe I am off, but would you guys agree that we almost always have a stiff diamond to make a forcing pass here? It is counterintuitive to me to not pass with stiff A when we are generally suggesting a stiff with our pass. I think we usually have a stiff since partner is unlikely to have a stiff D depending on agreements (no splinter, unless he's too strong to splinter). That said, I constructed some hands and the 5 level seems quite safe and +300 vs +450 is pretty likely, still it is counterintuitive to me to not take the money in that spot but mb it's right here.

[mike777]

As a nonexpert wow I must really misjudge this hand

 

My first concern was missing the grand I would always force to 6.

 

I assumed 2nt showed slam interest not just some random minimum game force.

 

ZI really don't see how pard will ever play me for this great of a hand is my main worry.

--

 

I am tempted to bid 5nt if that is gsf as I expect pard to at worst hold perhaps:

 

 

AJx..AKxx..xx....Kxxx

and don't know how to get to 7c

[Stephen Tu]

I assumed 2nt showed slam interest not just some random minimum game force.

 

It's strange to play 2nt as immediately showing slam interest. The idea behind 2nt raise is to leave room for opener to show features that make for good slams opposite some minimum GF hands if the cards are well located. If these min GF hands have to do something else like some higher bid (3nt or various swiss raises, etc.), you both lose that higher bid for other purposes, and make it harder to find these slams since you can't find like stiff vs. xxxx situations.

 

Making forcing passes or bidding 5H shows better offense hands than doubling which is what one does with worse hands to suggest partner not bid on with ordinary hands esp. ones with 2 diamond losers.

[mike777]

OK perhaps I am old....I was taught that 2nt did indeed show slam interest, never some minimum 12 pt hand

 

I play in a world where responder is often stronger than opener when gf

 

You suggest the opposite.

 

I grew up in a world where Barry Crane bid on crap and Ehaa was considered standard

Where Italy doubled for takeout on every hand it seemed.

 

---------------

 

too put this another way this is a problem of what does an opening bid mean at the one level, not a 5 level problem.

 

For me this hand has extras lots of extras.

if for you this is a nothing opener ....ok.

[Trinidad]

I would just bid 6♥. It is easy to construct hands where 6♥ won't make. But I think that there are more hands where 6♥ does make where partner will not bid 6 after a pass and pull (my obvious second choice).

 

Rik

[Cascade]

I would just bid 6♥. It is easy to construct hands where 6♥ won't make. But I think that there are more hands where 6♥ does make where partner will not bid 6 after a pass and pull (my obvious second choice).

 

Rik

 

Seriously, what sort of hand would you bid 5♥ on?

[Stephen Tu]

OK perhaps I am old....I was taught that 2nt did indeed show slam interest, never some minimum 12 pt hand

 

I play in a world where responder is often stronger than opener when gf

 

Why does this matter? Using 2nt to gather more info at a lower level works fine if responder has stronger hands also. The idea is usually that it's easier to evaluate fitting cards when the unbalanced hand describes the shape, with the balanced hand asking rather than showing. There's no tremendous advantage in having responder promise an extra K or whatever. Don't you want to reach slams both when responder has extra values and opener is min and the right shape AND when opener has extra and shape and responder has the right values but minimum?

 

too put this another way this is a problem of what does an opening bid mean at the one level, not a 5 level problem.

 

For me this hand has extras lots of extras.

if for you this is a nothing opener ....ok.

 

Again WTF are you talking about? Who said this is a "nothing opener", everyone agrees this has extra offense? Nothing openers DOUBLE, they don't make forcing passes or bid 5h freely. There are degrees of "extra", we are discussing how much extra each of the possible options should show, and where this hand lies among them.

[Cascade]

I was trying to make a point. Your pd will not have ♦ K or Q when someone jumps to 5, white vs white and you hold A in that suit. You can of course wait for that to happen and cater for that day, it is totally your own choice. I won't and this is my choice http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

This is so obviously fallacious - that partner will not have a top diamond honour. Effectively you are saying that no one ever jumps to 5♦ on a suit headed by KJ or QJ. That is simply not true and one does not have to wait for that long (relatively) to see these suits.

 

There is another thread at the moment involving the defense to 4♥ and the author later admits that he would never bid 4♥ on the actual hand held by declarer. The point being that there are people out there, including some quite good players, that play styles that are, to others, quite unsound and they will bid on hands that others, including you and perhaps I, would not bid on. Although in this case I wonder what you would bid on with KJ 9th or the like?

 

Do you really wait around for a solid suit headed by the ace or king to preempt 5minor in their game force auction?

[Trinidad]

Seriously, what sort of hand would you bid 5♥ on?

A distributional minimum, or -to put it in an other way- a hand that is slightly too strong to open a weak two or a preempt. These are hands that want to play 5♥, don't want to defend 5♦ at all, and certainly don't want to encourage partner to get higher than 5♥.

 

Rik

[Stephen Tu]

A distributional minimum, or -to put it in an other way- a hand that is slightly too strong to open a weak two or a preempt. These are hands that want to play 5♥, don't want to defend 5♦ at all, and certainly don't want to encourage partner to get higher than 5♥.

 

Really? How do you know you don't want to defend 5d? These hands might not make 5H, and 5d probably goes down easily when your side has the clear balance of HCP and you have the normal quick trick minimum for opening 1 rather than preempting.

 

Why not just pass and let partner decide what to do with these sort of hands, instead of possibly turning a plus position into a minus?

[bluecalm]

5H but I think I am stretching already.

[Trinidad]

Really? How do you know you don't want to defend 5d? These hands might not make 5H, and 5d probably goes down easily when your side has the clear balance of HCP and you have the normal quick trick minimum for opening 1 rather than preempting.

 

Why not just pass and let partner decide what to do with these sort of hands, instead of possibly turning a plus position into a minus?

Because pass does not merely let partner decide. It says: "I don't know whether to defend or declare." I let partner decide because I can't.

 

If I know of an 10-11 card fit and I have a hand without defense, I am not going to tell partner that I can't decide. I have a strong opinion that I want to declare and I bid 5♥.

 

Alternatively, you can look at it from partner's side. Is he going to like it if I pass with a defenseless hand, he decides to double and they make it easily (where we would have 10/11 tricks)?

 

So, if you get dealt ♠xx ♥KQJxxx ♦x ♣KJxx you bid 5♥, making the decision yourself.

 

Rik

[MrAce]

This is so obviously fallacious - that partner will not have a top diamond honour. Effectively you are saying that no one ever jumps to 5♦ on a suit headed by KJ or QJ. That is simply not true and one does not have to wait for that long (relatively) to see these suits.

 

Hold on a second. I never said that.

 

I said "you may want to wait for that, i won't"

 

I also know there are times, when my RHO overcalls hearts and i hold Kxx, the A may be on my left. I still upgrade my K each and every single time. And this probably happens much more than someone jumping to 5 level white vs white w/o 2 of top 3.

 

I do not even know what you are actually arguing. I could When you bid 5♥ you are losing your ability to punish them at 5 level anyway. I think you see bidding 5♥ is a sort of slam try, while Trinidad and some others see it as to play with weak but offensive hands as in his example, where he does not need what pd says. And they see "passing and then pulling" as an invitation to slam, not "forcing to slam" In this context passing and pulling seems very reasonable to me.

[Stephen Tu]

So, if you get dealt ♠xx ♥KQJxxx ♦x ♣KJxx you bid 5♥, making the decision yourself.

 

?? If partner doubles after my pass I think they are going down. You pass suggest bidding on, if he doubles, he's not doubling on the expectation of cashing heart tricks. Why concede -50 if +300 is available? And maybe on your particular example I open 2 not 1.

 

And they see "passing and then pulling" as an invitation to slam, not "forcing to slam"

Don't get this. If you are forcing to slam don't you just bid 6? In my view pass then pull is just stronger invitation than 5h, 5h isn't an "afraid 5d is making" bid, it's "I think 5 is a good bet, bid 6 if you like". I don't see why one should fear that 5d is making so often, sure it will make occasionally but you can win plenty of IMPS the times you collect your +100/300 instead of going down to compensate.

[MrAce]

 

 

Don't get this. If you are forcing to slam don't you just bid 6? In my view pass then pull is just stronger invitation than 5h, 5h isn't an "afraid 5d is making" bid, it's "I think 5 is a good bet, bid 6 if you like". I don't see why one should fear that 5d is making so often, sure it will make occasionally but you can win plenty of IMPS the times you collect your +100/300 instead of going down to compensate.

 

It is not about fear. It is about the intention of your bid. I completely disagree with light and strong slam invitations at 5 level. In general invitation concept is abused. Particularly at 5 level, after a heavy preempt, i do not want/need to spare my all bids into slam inviting categories. One of them should be intending to play at 5 level,without fearing pd will take it as a slam try of some kind, while other one being invitation to slam (primary massage) And our fear is not that they will make their contract if we leave it. I wish it was that simple, but it ain't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stephen Tu]

I don't get your point. Doesn't bidding 5 show extra offense? So with partner unlimited, surely he is allowed to and is going to bid further on some hands? I wouldn't characterize bidding 5 as "slam invite", but surely it shows some increase in trick taking ability over other options so it must invite going on if he has a better hand than you have the right to expect.