invitation or not?

[luckyloser]

you hold vul playing mps:

 

♠KQxxx

♥KQxx

♦xxx

♣x

 

you are first and pass! (normally you open 12hcp-hands) p opens 1d, you respond 1s, p rebids 2c and you bid 2h. now p raises to 3h. opps pass

 

how strong is partners hand?

what are his possiblbe shapes?

what do you bid?

[wanoff]

you hold vul playing mps:

 

♠KQxxx

♥KQxx

♦xxx

♣x

 

you are first and pass! (normally you open 12hcp-hands) p opens 1d, you respond 1s, p rebids 2c and you bid 2h. now p raises to 3h. opps pass

 

how strong is partners hand?

what are his possiblbe shapes?

what do you bid?

 

Partner is FG

Shape is 0454 or 1444

4♥

[aguahombre]

Partner is inviting game. Partner knows my strength; I need about that much to have bid 2H at all. I think partner, however, is expecting me to look at the location of my points and realize half of them are wasted opposite her hand.

 

I pass. If I had not passed initially, her raise of the 4th suit would already be in a g.f. context and she would not be sure I even had hearts; but, as a passed hand, I must have a heart suit ---so she doesn't need 3H as a forcing hedge.

[1eyedjack]

Aqua: if 3H is inv, are you not about as strong as possible in context?

[aguahombre]

Aqua: if 3H is inv, are you not about as strong as possible in context?

I thought I explained that (from my idea of the context, anyway). My hand strength is known to partner by the mere fact that I bid 2H; I couldn't do that with less. The only issue is whether my known strength is wasted in the suit partner does not have ---spades.

[1eyedjack]

Yes. I get that But I might try 3N

 

I wonder whether 2N or 3D might be better than 2H

[jmcilkley]

I'm not sure why we are bidding 2H anyway. Surely most people play 4th suit forcing so why not rebid 2NT then we all know what we are doing. 2NT shows 10 to a poor 12 with heart stops so partner can bid 3nt. I guess your partner must have a spade void, 5d, 4c and 4h. If your partner really doesn't fancy 3nt then he can try 3h and you will bid 4h.

 

you hold vul playing mps:

 

♠KQxxx

♥KQxx

♦xxx

♣x

 

you are first and pass! (normally you open 12hcp-hands) p opens 1d, you respond 1s, p rebids 2c and you bid 2h. now p raises to 3h. opps pass

 

how strong is partners hand?

what are his possiblbe shapes?

what do you bid?

[whereagles]

Regardless of 2H being natural or 4th suit, pard simply has support for hearts... 1444 or 0454.

 

Still, if bidding goes

 

1♦ 1♠

2♣ ??

 

I think 2♦ now is a good bid. There are no fillers in the minors, our high cars are "soft values" and pard may easily have a mere 11-12 H. Alternatives 2NT/3♦ are also ok, though a tad more aggressive. 4th suit sort is ok if pard has 3 spades, but risks getting us too high if he doesn't have them.

[whereagles]

dbl post pls erase kthx

[Zelandakh]

Regardless of 2H being natural or 4th suit, pard simply has support for hearts... 1444 or 0454.

It surely does make a difference here whether 2♥ is natural or not. If it is natural then it is possible to play 3♥ is a simple invitational raise, even though Responder's strength is already well defined. If 2♥ is artificial then this makes no sense whatsoever and 3♥ must be game-forcing. I would be inclined to argue that an invite over a natural 2♥ does not make much sense anyway - just how finely do we expect Responder to split their 10 count between declining and accepting?

 

Absent any special agreements I am never passing here, and indeed I would not have passed initially so the hand is already a super-maximum.

[mikeh]

I agree with Zel about the importance of knowing if 2♥ was known to be natural or 4th suit. I play 4th suit by a passed hand, altho not as gf. This, for example, would allow me to distinguish between club raises were partner's 2♣ to catch me a good club fit.

 

Assuming that 2♥ was natural, I would pass 3♥.

 

Agua's comment about value location is bang-on. This hand will play very poorly opposite most 1=4=4=4 invitational hands unless we are very lucky on the lie of the cards.

 

It won't play any better opposite a 0=4=4=5, which is a possible shape, and 0=4=5=4 isn't always a bargain either.

 

Imagine a reasonable hand such as x AJxx KQxx KQxx: this is a super-max, and some might prefer to jump to game here. We have only 3 top losers, assuming they don't establish a second diamond loser before we lead clubs, but we don't have anywhere close to 10 winners without a lot of luck.

 

Especially at mps, where we win by going plus more than by bidding close games, pass is clear.

 

I don't want to leave this topic without commenting on the post that suggested 3N. 3N is appallingly bad. Just consider some random 1=4=4=4 hands with 14 or so hcp, or some 0=4=5=4/0=4=4=5 hands with similar values. Yes, you can create some on which 3N has play, but only by being non-random.

 

If 2♥ were 4th suit forcing, then opener is showing significant extras: with invitational values he would bid 2N with all 1=4=4=4 hands and would swing low with a void spade and probably rebid the 5 card suit (or distort with 2N anyway). In that case, 4♥ is unavoidable but I wouldn't be surprised to see it fail on a trump lead. This hand is a classic illustration of the importance of location of cards, rather than the quantity of cards.

[1eyedjack]

I don't want to leave this topic without commenting on the post that suggested 3N. 3N is appallingly bad. Just consider some random 1=4=4=4 hands with 14 or so hcp, or some 0=4=5=4/0=4=4=5 hands with similar values. Yes, you can create some on which 3N has play, but only by being non-random.

 

I think that the point is that if 3N is a dreadful contract then 3H is likely to be pretty awful also. At least 3N has the potential for a game bonus which 3H does not provide and 4H is out of reach. I suppose that you escape a double by passing 3H, and that also has to be taken into account.

I would expect to rebid 1N with 1-4-4-4 shape, and to me the 2C pretty much guarantees a 5th Diamond. If not absolutely guaranteed it is heavily odds-on.

I was picturing opener with about 15-16 HCP, and if the black suits are adequately guarded, as suggested by the S:KQ and partner's 2C bid, then the required balance of 9 tricks may be available in the reds.

If I have a combined 25-26 HCP and wasted values in the black suits all over the place, then you can theorise all you want but I am happy to take my chances in 3N.