3N: Right Bidding, Wrong Result?

[vodkagirl]

Did we find the right spot but just get a wrong result or should we have found 4♠? We are using 2/1. Opponents are silent throughout the auction.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq85ht72dj9cqj8&n=sj62hadkt732ck963&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp1sp2cp2hp2np3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

This went down by two tricks. Opponents got 10.5 imps. A huge disaster.

 

My 2♥ is fourth suit forcing. Partner's 2N tells me he has ♥s stoppered. I then put it into game at 3N.

 

Partner states I should have bid 3♠ to show five ♠s which tells him what he needs to know i.e 3N or 4♠. This, on reflection, seems right.

 

He made another remark which seemed interesting: that 2N only shows one stopper. This seemed to imply that I should only have gone to 3N with a second stopper (or have bid 2N myself if I was double stoppered. But we only need two stoppers in a suit opponents have bid and they were silent throughout, correct yes?).

 

Analysis of bidding much appreciated because I am not sure that we just did not happen to get unlucky ie right bidding, wrong result. After all, this ain't chess, in which the right moves lead to the right result.

[jogs]

North should bid 2♠ to complete the picture of his hand. Then you can bid 4♠.

[wank]

north bid terribly. 2nt is beginner standard bad. he doesn't really have an opening bid either but that's a matter of style.

 

playing mainstream (imo) methods north should raise to 1♠ to 2. playing minority methods where that guarantees 4, he should assuredly bid them over 2♥.

 

2♥ doesn't ask for a stop. it asks for further information. of course one such piece of useful information is a heart stop, but nowhere near so much as 3 spades.

[helene_t]

North's 2NT denies three spades so the question is if you are so worried about the hearts that you will suggest a spade contract even if it will be a 5-2 fit.

 

I think not. Txx is almost half a stopper, if partner has AJ for example you have two stoppers together. Besides, if you bid 3♠ (which shows six spades) partner might raise you on a singleton if he has Axx of hearts or similar.

[neilkaz]

I believe that in standard bidding a 3♠ jump isn't forcing. I also believe that PD's first priority after 4SF is to show 3 card support for PD's major. With that in context, PD's 2NT is awful.

 

However, I do have to ask what a 3♠ bid by you after PD's 2NT would've shown presuming you both were playing 4SF as a GF?

[billw55]

Partner states I should have bid 3♠ to show five ♠s which tells him what he needs to know i.e 3N or 4♠. This, on reflection, seems right.

No, it isn't. Your partner was completely wrong. He absolutely must bid 2♠ over 2♥ to show three card support, and in fact failing to do so denies having it. 100% of blame to north.

[steve2005]

Not to mention singleton Ace is a terrible stopper. opp lead the suit now unless you have K or QJ they might run the whole suit.

 

At least with Axx you can hold up and maybe break opp communication.

[the hog]

Try

1D 1S

2S

 

If your pd does not like raising on 3 she should certainly bid 2S over 2H. 2NT is terrible.

[aguahombre]

Analysis of bidding much appreciated because I am not sure that we just did not happen to get unlucky ie right bidding, wrong result. After all, this ain't chess, in which the right moves lead to the right result.

There was no "we" here. North was wrong; North is a hand-hog; North then made excuses for being wrong and being a hand-hog. There is a solution. Lose North.

[Lord Molyb]

North made a huge blunder by bidding no-trump instead of partner's suit with 3-card support and a singleton in the fourth suit.

[MrAce]

Did we find the right spot but just get a wrong result or should we have found 4♠? We are using 2/1. Opponents are silent throughout the auction.

 

 

Analysis of bidding much appreciated because I am not sure that we just did not happen to get unlucky ie right bidding, wrong result. After all, this ain't chess, in which the right moves lead to the right result.

 

Awful bidding, right (deserved) result.

 

Others have already said what was wrong with the bidding of N and why it was wrong.

 

I could have sympathy if the 4th suit came at 3 level and opener had to sacrifice from showing either fit or stopper. He has no excuse at 2 level when stopper can be asked/shown later easily if needed.

 

A small hint for you, use it or not, xxx vs xx is OK to play 3 NT, when opponents are silent. If the 4th suit bidder does not have 5 spades, he at least have xx(x) in the 4th suit, because if he is shorter than that he probably have a 3m bid over 2♠, which then you can show your stopper if no fit.

 

Partner states I should have bid 3♠ to show five ♠s which tells him what he needs to know i.e 3N or 4♠. This, on reflection, seems right..

 

No, this would show a hand with slam interest with 6 card spade most of the time, when opener has already shown a stopper in unbid suit. Not a dead minimum, balanced hand, which already made a GF bid (assuming 4th suit was GF)

 

Reading the other comments of your pd besides the ones i quoted, i have a suggestion. If he has so many awful ideas, in a very simple auction and a simple hand like this, effort to train him how to swim the rest of the ocean is futile. You will come to life only one time. It is not the awful mistakes which makes a pd hopeless, it is the attitude as Aguaman mentioned and resistance to improvement.

 

Most of the established good pdships that i observed at the table, when they have a bad board or a disaster, each one talks about what he/she could/should/would have done or better, instead of what their pd could/should/would have done.

[sfi]

I could have sympathy if the 4th suit came at 3 level and opener had to sacrifice from showing either fit or stopper. He has no excuse at 2 level when stopper can be asked/shown later easily if needed.

 

QFT. This is the key point - a heart stopper can easily be shown later, but 3 card spade support may be lost if we don't show it immediately. Considering how the auction will proceed when the hand has multiple features of potential interest is a skill worth working on.

[vodkagirl]

My partner is much better than I, this hand did not feel right so I posted it.

 

The forum has collectively shown that his explanation of the bidding was tendentious and in that he is only human.

 

I am not sure what 3♠ would have shown over 2N over than a six card suit. We have no fixed understanding for this spot. Not finding a fit and with him guaranteeing the stop I would have quantatively bid 4N over his 2N for the slam attempt if the hand had been big enough.

 

Partner understood 2♥ as a GF.

 

If partner had bid 3♠ instead of 2N then what would I have done without a fifth ♠? Simple pass and play at the 3 level? gamble on 3N? what?

 

All the replies have been much appreciated.

[MrAce]

My partner is much better than I, this hand did not feel right so I posted it.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. Yes, there are times we all are off and make awful mistakes.

 

However this hand you posted and his comments proves 1 of 2 things.

 

1- He does not really know what is correct and what to bid, twice in a very simple basic auction and a hand, which is no brainer for beginners/novices (which ever is the bottom level for you). Thus he can not be better from anyone, including G.W.Bush.

 

2-He actually knows it very well, and tried to hand-hog Aguaman stated, and instead of trying to make something positive for the pdship understanding in the future and take it on himself like a man, he tried to put the blame on you.

 

Guess what ? If it is the 2nd option, even though we don't know his name, he would have just done it the right way by admitting and gain more respect from you, instead, by his effort to put it on you, he is in BBF where everyone thinks he is a joke (put it as politely as i can.)

[Bbradley62]

If partner had bid 3♠ instead of 2N then what would I have done without a fifth ♠? Simple pass and play at the 3 level? gamble on 3N? what?

If you didn't have a fifth spade, you would almost certainly either have a heart stopper (and bid 3NT) or have support for at least one of partner's two naturally-bid minor suits.

[neilkaz]

My partner is much better than I, this hand did not feel right so I posted it.

 

The forum has collectively shown that his explanation of the bidding was tendentious and in that he is only human.

 

I am not sure what 3♠ would have shown over 2N over than a six card suit. We have no fixed understanding for this spot. Not finding a fit and with him guaranteeing the stop I would have quantatively bid 4N over his 2N for the slam attempt if the hand had been big enough.

 

Partner understood 2♥ as a GF.

 

If partner had bid 3♠ instead of 2N then what would I have done without a fifth ♠? Simple pass and play at the 3 level? gamble on 3N? what?

 

All the replies have been much appreciated.

 

Partner understood 2♥ as GF and then still bid 2NT rather than showing 3 card spade support. This is too disgusting for words. PD is much better than you and yet does't understand the basics of 4SGF !! Lacking 5th ♠ you make the most natural bid at the 3 level since game is already forced. Now pd can decide to try 3NT, or the 4-3 fit or a minor suit.

[chasetb]

Your partner dropped the ball big time. Your bidding was spot on. Enough said.

[helene_t]

There is a solution. LoseEducate North.

FYP. It is a bit harsh to throw partner out because of a single incident. Of course it could be that North is the type of player who refuses to learn from his own mistakes and blame them on partner instead. But we don't know yet. He might just have learned FSF from a bad teacher. There might still be time to recover :)

[vodkagirl]

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me.

 

Many thanks to all who contributed.

[jogs]

Try

1D 1S

2S

 

If your pd does not like raising on 3 she should certainly bid 2S over 2H. 2NT is terrible.

 

I like your auction. Didn't notice the weakness of North's hand.

[helene_t]

If partner had bid 3♠ instead of 2N then what would I have done without a fifth ♠? Simple pass and play at the 3 level? gamble on 3N? what?

Since partner could bid 2♠, 3♠ would be a special bid. He would have a strong hand so you certainly have game. You would know he had at most one heart. This means that if you don't have a heart stopper, you probably have slam in a minor suit. Without five spades you would be 4333 or 4324 or 4234 so you would know in which suit you have the fit. Just bid 4♣ or 4♦, accordingly. Or 5♣ or 5♦ if your hand is not suitable for slam.

[WBreedyk]

Poor bidding judgement by N, pure and simple. After the 2 heart bid, N has plenty of time,- he should show the spade support by bidding 2 spades. Now S will realize N's shortness in hearts (given the bids in clubs and diamonds), and bid 4 spades. Bidding should be viewed as a collaborative effort,- clearly N failed to realize this when he bid 2NT (looks like he wanted to be declarer).

[helene_t]

Actually, North can come to the right conclusion without even knowing the rules for answers to FSF:

- if you have 4-4 in the majors you would have responded 1♥, not 1♠

- if you have 5-4 in the majors the heart stopper is irrelevant, you have a spade fit

- if you have three or less hearts with a stopper and only four spades you would probably have bid no-trumps yourself, not used FSF

- if you have three or less hearts without a stopper 3NT is unlikely to be right. 4♠ in a 4-3 fit is probably a better contract.

 

So no matter what you have, 2NT can almost work never better than 2♠.

[Trump Echo]

I might be too conservative, but I would pass the opening if I held North's hand. Assuming East passed, South would open 1 Spade, and I'd leap to 4 Spades.

 

Having said that, IMO, North's third bid is completely wrong. Once the GF is established with the 4th suit, North should have taken the opportunity to show delayed light support for the Spades. And on to game you go.

 

North's passing of the completely legitimate Spades bid in a game force and bidding NT with a singleton shows a lack of bidding knowledge.